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Unread 08-27-2002, 12:36 AM   #276
shoyn
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i would think that when a jewish band plays a goyishe song, not only are they not elevating the song but they are lowering themselves.

one needs a special koach to refine such klipo (Rebbes etc) and this is not for anyone to take into his own hands.

while its very nice about you becoming stronger in yiddishkeit etc i dont know that this justifies everything.

no one can argue that shlomo carlebach was mekarev hundreds etc but does this then justify all the means?
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Unread 08-27-2002, 03:14 AM   #277
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downunda, "i would think that when a jewish band plays a goyishe song, not only are they not elevating the song but they are lowering themselves. "

i would think at the very least they ARE evelating by adding Jewish words.

shlomo carlebach was a bit different to piamenta and the music didn't mekarav me it made me feel more secure with Yiddishkeit. That helped alot in changing my views.

I'm not saying to go and change evry single goyish song to jewish, but 90% of piamenta's songs are original or based on niggunim and at the end of the day s. carlebach got Jews closer to Judiasm, and piamenta are not s. carlebach, they didn't go against the Rebbe, and it does help alot, i see it all the time living in a not yet frum communty downunder, downunda.

I think music is Kelipos Nogah, i don't think a Jew should davka go and listen to copied goyish music, but in mekaraving ppl...

Pretty much music helps alot in mekaraving ppl, if you use it properly, even frum yidden get inspired by a good nigun once in a while.

Desire in a sweet Voice (Music) also is on a higher level than having a desire in food (Kuntres Umayin) and i just guess that food is a higher desire than what some of those not yet frum kids are into...

Last edited by Golem; 08-27-2002 at 06:16 AM.
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Unread 08-27-2002, 06:13 AM   #278
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Lubamessimaniac, "Here are some of the better Niggunim tapes: ... Any other good stuff I'm missing?"

Argghhh...PIAMENTA-"SONGS OF THE REBBES"
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Unread 08-27-2002, 08:54 PM   #279
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ok golem: i have one thing to say about this and that is that listening to cds like variations etc just gave me an appetite for the real thing, cuz the immitations are never really as good and wtvr, and even if it hadnt led to me listening to non jewish music (which i stopped doing recently) everytime i heard those same songs in department stores or wherever, they were familiar to me, it wasnt a foreign thing anymore.i think its more about the spirit of the law than the actual letter of the law
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Unread 08-27-2002, 09:01 PM   #280
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it sounds like it depends on where you're coming from. In other words, if you're coming from the world of goyish music, music like Variations, Piamentas, Shlock Rock etc. might lead you gently into the world of Jewish music.
But if you are coming from the world of Jewish music and you listen to the goyish imitations, it could very well lead you to trying the "real" thing.
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Unread 08-27-2002, 10:01 PM   #281
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I think that sums it up .
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Unread 08-27-2002, 10:35 PM   #282
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so now the question is: how do we achieve that the right ppl hear it and the wrong ppl dont. bec teens latch onto these things and it may sound farfetched but i can tell you from personal experience that listening to those songs can be the start of a very big downfall. parents who are unaware will buy these cds for their kidz not knowing what it really is and what ideas its putting into these frum kidz heads!
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Unread 08-27-2002, 11:00 PM   #283
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#1 Don't tell the parents not to buy it! "Forbidden waters taste sweeter!"

My theory with these kind of things is that you need 3 conditions:
1) Enable
2) Confine
3) Educate

Enable: Make sure that there are enough Chassidishe tapes/cds or whatever, so you won't be depriving the child of music. Make sure that there is always the option to listen to Chassidishe music, fast music and slow music, with words and without words, done well with good singers, etc.

Confine: DON'T simply ban all music that does not reach the level you feel is appropriate. Make a condition, though, that music which is not up to par can only be listened to in private via headphones. This way, nobody else is feeling the effects of the music, and the one listening loses the sense of camaredie which is often the catalyst to listen in general.

Educate: Teach the children, teenagers, adults , etc. why this type of music is not appropriate. Utilize experiments to show that what you listen to affects your thought processes. Encourage listening to Niggunim, knowing Niggunim, dancing to Niggunim. Teach the backgrounds of songs. Let them understand!

I know I'm being rather idealistic but I think that this system can work.
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Unread 08-28-2002, 12:14 AM   #284
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jude i agree, like i posted above , it is like the poro adumo.

golem, a tune that is composed by an immoral drug taking etc, with the original words reflecting the lifestyle of the composer etc, do you think it is klipas noga?
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Unread 08-28-2002, 12:42 AM   #285
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Golem - Songs of the Rebbes is not JUST Lubavitcher Niggunim - it's a mix of all different types of niggunim. I meant Lubavitch Nigunim.

Jude and Hishtatchus, I basically agree with your assessments, and Lubab19, it's great once again to here agreement from someone who has experienced the other side of things.

Downunda, we usually don't know what can become Jewish and what doesn't. Ledugma, La Marseilles lechoira was written by some French shmendrik. Tachlis, the REBBE takeh took it; but the Rebbe also gave SOME TYPE of permission to Piamenta to take songs. (I've written before that I heard that from Rabbi Heschel Greenberg, to whom Avi Piamenta showed the letter when he had received it.) So, who knows???

Oh - I heard Partish 2 being played in a store today, and I heard "Don't Worry, Be Happy" Jewish version. Just pathetic.
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Unread 08-28-2002, 01:03 AM   #286
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[quote][
Downunda, we usually don't know what can become Jewish and what doesn't. Ledugma, La Marseilles lechoira was written by some French shmendrik. Tachlis, the REBBE takeh took it; but the Rebbe also gave SOME TYPE of permission to Piamenta to take songs. (I've written before that I heard that from Rabbi Heschel Greenberg, to whom Avi Piamenta showed the letter when he had received it.) So, who knows???

as you write, WE DON'T KNOW...! How can you prove from the Rebbe taking lamars and giving permission to piamenta etc to anyone doing as he sees fit???

the distinction is clear. The Rebbe has the power to take tunes from klipo etc , we don't.

one of the spices in the Ketores, mor, (according to many opinions) was from a non kosher source (blood of an impure beast). an element that man can not elevate (eat and utilise energy in torah etc). however in the bais hamikdosh etc due to kedusho etc it could be refined. this obviously does not prove that we can then on our own go and be mevarer this item.

Last edited by shoyn; 08-28-2002 at 08:59 PM.
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Unread 08-28-2002, 03:20 AM   #287
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Fine, I agree that if a druggy makes a song it might not be appropiate.

Just I still think that if it helps ppl become secure with Judiasm and helps them get closer to Yiddishkeit why can't it be used?
In my old school Zionest Israeli Madrichim used shlock Rock songs and it inspired most of my not yet frum class for about a week, and some of those songs were made by druggies.

"cuz the immitations are never really as good and wtvr"

Fine, but thats variations, if you listen to the original goyish songs and the piamenta copies, i think most of piamenta copies are better, I mean Yossi Piamenta is even known in the Goyish world to some ppl as a really good guitarist. And Piamenta is also very unique, I've never heard an electic guitar and flute duet before i heard them!

Also I'm wondering (my question might have been answered in these 20 pages if so sorry...) where is the sources that you cannot copy goyish music? I think I saw something that says it is in Gemara Chaggigah but I can't remember?
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Unread 08-28-2002, 05:50 AM   #288
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Downunda, I agree - I was saying that Piamenta lechoira either has that ability, or has permission fro whatever reason. We don't know about other situations. I would be inclined to think that Variations is better than say, the Yeadles (an old group who used to copy the Beatles) because at least they have toichen. But I don't think they can turn a song around. Same with Shlock Rock.

Golem, the Gmara in Chagiga (15b?) is about Acheir, who fried out from Greek music. The gmara in Gittin (9a?) speaks about bashir loi yishtu yayin, which according to some of the meforshim mean that we cannot listen to the style of music that is sung with wine - i.e. bar-style music. But to copy non-Jewish music and make it Jewish? That only came up when Chassidic groups started doing it!
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Unread 08-28-2002, 05:54 AM   #289
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B"H

which was bar-style music, isn't there a problem that we get these niggunim from real druggies (the drug being alcohol?)
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Unread 08-28-2002, 10:44 PM   #290
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duuuuuude! Alcohol a drug? Whatever do you say lechayim on, kadochis and vantzin?
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Unread 08-28-2002, 11:09 PM   #291
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I'm not sure if that has anything to do with drugs. I think the point was any type of music which is the prevalent peasantry music, which they sing when they're getting drunk, is a no-no. Ask your LOPR for more clarification.

(LOPR = Local Orthodox Practicing Rabbi)
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Unread 08-28-2002, 11:27 PM   #292
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I would rather not ask a Rabbi who has to practice,I would rather ask one who got it down. music from the heart, like shamiel's song, what about that?
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Unread 08-28-2002, 11:32 PM   #293
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zelda read post #286
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Unread 08-28-2002, 11:59 PM   #294
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you mean that you need a Rebbe to raise it up? is a plain song which is not a shir ahava or a shir a"z in the 3 klippos? if it's in k"n doesn't everyone have the power to raise it up?
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Unread 08-29-2002, 02:20 AM   #295
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hey zelda explain we dont all learn chassidus or wherever all thats stuff from
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Unread 08-29-2002, 02:55 AM   #296
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Sorry, the point I was making is that the Gemara Gittin with the prohibition against songs sung with wine, well most of the copied niggunim are drinking songs.
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Unread 08-29-2002, 03:03 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally posted by unowho
hey zelda explain we dont all learn chassidus or wherever all thats stuff from
Sorry. I don't know much either, so I expect what little I know is common knowledge. I was asking if some song is pareve, not a love song and not a song of avodah zara, is it still considered rooted in evil, or is it considered pareve, in which case anyone should be able to raise it into kedusha. Remeber that I was asking a question and not stating a fact. Lechayim.
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Unread 08-29-2002, 04:11 AM   #298
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That's a very good question...
I wish I could answer it

So instead I'm going to ask another question about the question...
Are there levels within Klipas Noga (the "Pareve") that not just anyone can elevate? Are there levels where the thing can only be partially elevated? If not, then music's gotta be Klipas Tmeius (totally forbidden, lowest evil) - but that seems very extreme to me!
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Unread 08-31-2002, 11:27 PM   #299
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I've also got a Question

Would it be better or worse if you have a Jewish song with Goyish words or a Goyish Song with Jewish words??
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Unread 09-01-2002, 12:17 AM   #300
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For all my opinion counts... I would say a Jewish song with Goyish words is better, because in a tune the message is more subtle and easier to overlook- Goyish words is a visible evil, but a Goyishe tune is like a satellite link to your Neshama- or a hacker- cuz you don't see it! But ask someone more knowledgeable...!

Last edited by hishtatchus; 09-01-2002 at 02:30 PM.
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