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Unread 08-21-2002, 06:42 PM   #251
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What we did was pick out interesting songs, like a lively niggun in russian, and they would love it. After a 2 week program we had "friya" kids singing nyezhuritzichluptzi (ok, you spell it ) mit a chayus, and stavyapitu mit a chasidishe geshmak. Someone here has a signature "think up". When you expect better from kids, and cater to that instead of thinking down and making excuses, kids usually do not disappoint you.
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Unread 08-21-2002, 07:10 PM   #252
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For singing, yeah a Niggun works.
But for listening to, dancing, etc.- only one Niggunim tape works- Merakdim Shuva- and even that's not done so well. If there were more Niggunim done Be'Ofen HaMiskabel (in a way that reaches the targeted audience) maybe we wouldn't rely on the other tapes so much...
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Unread 08-21-2002, 10:33 PM   #253
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<<and even that's not done so well. If there were more Niggunim done Be'Ofen HaMiskabel (in a way that reaches the targeted audience) maybe we wouldn't rely on the other tapes so much... >>

Yet aren't we trying to prevent from listening to those other tapes? So wouldnt' that defeat the purpose? If we just had our niggunim like those "other tapes" (I don't even know how to describe them), then whats the point of them?
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Unread 08-21-2002, 11:36 PM   #254
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We have a very highly developed music situation where I'm on shlichus, because I believe very strongly in musical influence. Here's a coupla things that I've seen from maaseh bepoiel:

1. When you start off with Piamenta (and yes, Piamenta has niggunim too) the kids release the original bias against Jewish music. From that, the kids will be more willing to hear Avraham Fried and less rockier/more Jewish music, including Hupp Cossack and The Baal Shem Tov's Niggun. WARNING: Kids will listen to Chazak and My Fellow Jew BEFORE even TOUCHING Hupp Cossack - they need to get used to it and aideled first.

2. We made a songbook fro Friday night meals which includes some 70 songs, including 40 in English, 10 in Hebrew, and 10 in other languages, and 10 without words (just the names of niggunim). We usually get people into it by singing a few originals (The ATheists' Convention is a very enjoable song) and a few copies - Puff the Kosher Dragon, The Jacks and the Draidel, etc. Only deep into the meal can we attempt a few niggunim - and usually fast niggunim, because bederech klal, ledaavoni, people don't like the introspective long and slow niggunim - they take too long.

3. Maaseh Shehoyo two weeks ago - a kid walked into my Sunday School class with a bunch of CDs. I asked him if he had any Jewish CDs, he said no. "Why not?" "Jewish music stinks!" As soon as I was finished with the first period, I called the kids into my car, and turned on PIamenta's Mitzva Gedola full blast. The kids started laughing, because they recognized the non-Jewish version. Afterwards, however, everyone agreed that the Jewish version was better. Next up: Asher Bara. Repeat. Next: Modeh Ani from Fried. When the kids recognized the words, they appreciated the song. Now, the whole group of kids wants to get Jewish music!
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Unread 08-22-2002, 12:44 AM   #255
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Luba, can you answer the question I asked in post #248 ??
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Unread 08-22-2002, 02:36 AM   #256
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Lubamessiamaniac-
Although your kids were willing to also listen to Niggunim, I highly doubt (and yes I may be wrong) that any of them did a Teshuva Gamur and will ONLY listen to Niggunim.

I don't think anyone totally hates all Niggunim- but apparently most Mechanchim here think that all "other" Jewish music is not ok for "our" kids (because of possibly non-Jewish origins, or whatever). If you want teens to listen to at least majority Niggunim, there's got to be more with a beat!
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Unread 08-22-2002, 06:49 AM   #257
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I agree 100%. Sorry that it came out the other way - all I meant to say is that you have a situation in which there is gradual change for the better, which includes niggunim as well. I myself cannot ONLY listen to niggunim - it would drive me batty! (And thats even though there are a lot more quality niggunim tapes that have been produced ever since Nichoach was put out.)

Here are some of the better Niggunim tapes:

1. Neimois Chabad - arranged by Mona Rosenblum. Good stuff. The second album is not as good as the first though.
2. Fried's Hupp Cossack and Baal Shem Tov's Niggun.
3. Music of Lubavitcher Chassidim - arranged by Moshe Laufer.
4. Chabad Centenial Concert - good stuff, if you like classical music.
5. Chabad Classics series - #2 is in my opinion the best, having Andy Statman playing beautifully on it.
6. Chassidance - a bit 70's, but it's fun to listen to every so often. Anyone know who made it? There are no credits.

Any other good stuff that I'm missing?
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Unread 08-22-2002, 06:53 AM   #258
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RebYid, from what I've seen, it's the recognizing of the non-Jewish tunes that attracts kids to listen to the rest of the stuff - and this I've seen b'chush. Lechatchila, they'll only listen to the songs they already know, and then they'll allow themselves to admit that it's good stuff!

In particular, it happened with Piamenta's Kol Hamesameach - the song only hit Australia five months ago. Before then, kids weren't interested in hearing the song! Only once it became really popular down here, did the kids ersht listen to the Piamenta version, and only then did they realize that the Piamenta version is so much better!
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Unread 08-22-2002, 01:07 PM   #259
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<<Any other good stuff that I'm missing?>>

Yes!
1) double cassette, "Hanigunim ha'michuvanim shel Admorei Chabad"- the Precise Melodies of the Chabad Rebbes - which is mostly violin and oboe, some keyboard. Some of it is exquisite.

2) how can you overlook Chanin's series?! A Treasury of Lubavitcher Niggunim, three volumes (the fourth is a repeat of the 2nd, but instrumental instead of voices).

and what's the name of the tape, with the Rebbe's picture on it, which has the niggunim the Rebbe taught? is that Piamenta too?
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Unread 08-22-2002, 05:25 PM   #260
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What's the consensus on Raya Mehemna (Bitton)? He played by simchas beis hashoeivo in CH.
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Unread 08-22-2002, 09:23 PM   #261
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lubmes, when the kids recognised piamenta as the better version than the goyish, while i see the positive youre bringing out etc, what they are effectively saying is that piamentas version is more goyish!!! More rock, better arrangement to bring out the essentially goyishe tune!!! this is not meant to argue with anything posted but be mereley an observation
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Unread 08-22-2002, 09:26 PM   #262
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jude, when i saw the ommission of chanin's tapes on the list i attributed it to the fact that the title of the list was "Here are some of the better Niggunim tapes". Personally, I find the quality of the music , arrangements, etc somewhat lacking and amateurish. Especially the latest one (antilis?), i found quite poor.

but as they say letaam verayach ain lehisvukayuch!
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Unread 08-22-2002, 09:49 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lubamessimaniac
RebYid, from what I've seen, it's the recognizing of the non-Jewish tunes that attracts kids to listen to the rest of the stuff - and this I've seen b'chush. Lechatchila, they'll only listen to the songs they already know, and then they'll allow themselves to admit that it's good stuff!
You misunderstood my question. I was not talking about what to play to not-yet-frum kids. I'm sure you are acting on the advice of eltere Chassidim on your shlichus.

My question was regarding the "Jewish" music for the frumme oilom. Why can't MBD et al use traditional chassidishe tunes? Why do they need to "appropriate" the modern day goyishe stuff?
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Unread 08-23-2002, 12:10 AM   #264
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Alright, one by one:

Jude, I did forget to mention those. Downunda, they aren't comparable to Nichoach, tho...

Downunda, tachlis, the kids, as I said before, via Piamenta allow themselves to listen to other Jewish artists. In this case, as wellas what I saw on shlichus in Ukraine, Avraham Fried became the second step into Jewish music.

RebYid, with that, I agree. For performers like MBD, whose work is listened to only by the frum world, I never understood why goyish songs have to be stolen. Who are they impressing? Ma sheain kayn Piamenta, Shlock Rock and Variations - they're using the goyishe recognizable tunes to start kids listening to our stuff.

Have I mentioned that Dedi's Eishes Chayil isn't Jewish?

And Raaya (Raava) Mhemna is great stuff. Anyone know where I can get a copy of the first tape? I called up Bitton to get a copy, but he said that even HE doesn't have a good copy!
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Unread 08-23-2002, 04:57 PM   #265
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I'm really surprised by the two ho hum reactions to Chanin's tapes. I find them quite beautiful. Oh well.
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Unread 08-23-2002, 07:44 PM   #266
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So what's the official party line on shlomeleh's niggunim again?
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Unread 08-25-2002, 12:27 AM   #267
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downunda, "what they are effectively saying is that piamentas version is more goyish!!!"

So what you are effectively saying is that the better the music, the more goyish...
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Unread 08-25-2002, 12:40 AM   #268
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or the more goyish, the better the music
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Unread 08-25-2002, 12:51 AM   #269
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Someone told me recently this prewar Gerer "joke".

A Gerer Chosid didn't come to the "Tish" A friend asked him: Yankel where were you you missed the "Tish" with all the "marchas". (The style of Gerer songs are mostly in form of marches)

Yankel Replied: I went to the concert

His friend said, but the all the songs of the concert were sung at the "Tish".

Aaha, replied the Yankel the concert goer, why listen to the imitation when I can go to the original?
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Unread 08-25-2002, 11:59 AM   #270
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<<So what's the official party line on shlomeleh's niggunim again?>>

oh no! not again! do us all a favor, and look up carlebach with the Search feature, and read the dozens of posts on the subject. Alternaltively, you can read through all 18 pages of this thread
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Unread 08-25-2002, 06:41 PM   #271
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You never know, you never know
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Unread 08-25-2002, 11:54 PM   #272
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Watching the kids react to Piamenta's Big Time is takeh interesting. I had a kid in my car yesterday, a kid who I teach, but he ain't going too far in his Yiddishkeit too fast... Big Time was playing. It's not a grub CD at all. I was sure that a kid like him would complain, but the only complaint I got was, "Turn it up!" Now I'm not sure if that was a result of A) His recognizing Kol Hamesameach B) The group of kids had OK'd it (as I wrote earlier C) He was tired, and just wanted to hear music or D) He poshut enjoyed it. But it goes to show that even grubb kids may like more aidele music...
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Unread 08-26-2002, 01:57 AM   #273
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golem, if you play a goyishe song and someone else plays the same song but better then yes you are playing the song more goyishly
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Unread 08-26-2002, 03:56 AM   #274
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It doesn't make sense to say that if you play a goyish song better it becomes more goyish. Reason being that the logic of the kids would be if Jewish songs sound better than goyish songs then jewish songs are better.
Even if the reason for listening to the Jewish Song is not correct the jewish song still does alot of good, firstly when the kids get the song into their head or are singing along with the song, they are saying tehillim and mishnayos, ie, the song my piamenta Moshe on "The Way You Like It" is the first mishna in Pirkei Avos and secondly this is a great way to get Frie or even frum kids to learn mishnayos and tehillim ba'al peh.
If you can get these not yet frum kids to listen to these jewish songs like piamenta more frequently, they will sing it to themselves and listen while they are walking in the street or at home and while they are listening they will be saying mishnayos and tehillim while walking in the street and this will bring Moshiach closer.
Also being a musicmaniac and a BT, when I started listening to good Jewish music it really helped me become more frum, also I was really surprised at first when i started listening to piamenta etc...at the great music which was Jewish, I even saw somewhere that Yossi Piamenta was in Rolling Stone Magazines Top Ten Guitarists in the world. And even though i had heard some of the songs before and heard it better by piamenta, it didn't make the songs more goyish but adaraba it made me feel more secure with my Judiasm and really really helped me become frum.
And Therefor I don't know about you downunda, but from real life experience I cna rightfully say that if A JEWISH band plays a Goyish song better, it makes the song less goysih and more JEWISH.

Last edited by Golem; 08-26-2002 at 04:09 AM.
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Unread 08-26-2002, 09:13 PM   #275
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Quite interesting, Golem, and I'm glad to see your practical experience fits in with my act7ual experimentation...
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