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Unread 12-15-2002, 05:40 PM   #1
lubejob
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handshaking

hi --- i was wondering if anyone has any good things to say to someone of the opposite gender who tries to shake your hand-- without embarassing them
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Unread 12-15-2002, 05:48 PM   #2
Jude
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Who used the line: "My mother taught me not to touch things that don't belong to me"?

Last edited by Jude; 12-23-2002 at 02:53 PM.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 06:00 PM   #3
zaque36
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Is it true that if you're gonna cause a big embarassment (however u spell it) then you're allowed to shake their hand? I heard something like that, and it sounds funny to me.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 06:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
I think it was M. Friedman who used the line: "My mother taught me not to touch things that don't belong to me."
from experience I would not try that one.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 07:03 PM   #5
Jude
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I've actually wondered about that line, you mean women BELONG to their husbands? I would think it wouldn't go over well, but I guess the original intent wasn't to emphasize the BELONGING but, the NOT TOUCHING, and that it was a cute line
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Unread 12-15-2002, 07:12 PM   #6
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zaque, funny or not yes there are real chareidi poskim who pasken that way. Believe it. Maybe not Chassidish. And the Chazon Ish is rumored to have said that handshaking is something which warrants "ye'hareig v'al yaavor".

However, it really isn't a stretch to say that handshaking is not "derech chibah".
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Unread 12-15-2002, 07:18 PM   #7
lambda
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
I've actually wondered about that line, you mean women BELONG to their husbands? I would think it wouldn't go over well, but I guess the original intent wasn't to emphasize the BELONGING but, the NOT TOUCHING, and that it was a cute line
But similarly, men would belong to their wives. It's mutually recursive ownership.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 08:23 PM   #8
zaque36
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So chabad doesnt hold that way, I assume?
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Unread 12-15-2002, 08:30 PM   #9
shoyn
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hold or shake!
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Unread 12-15-2002, 08:43 PM   #10
noahidelaws
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BS"D One shliach told me that at social events he always carries around his business cards in his pocket, and when someone female motions to shake his hand, he hands her the card!
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Unread 12-15-2002, 10:00 PM   #11
lubejob
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my mother did something like that --- some guy at the bank reached to shake her hand and she handed him some papers. but what to do if u dont have any papers handy?
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Unread 12-15-2002, 10:04 PM   #12
zaque36
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gum?
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Unread 12-15-2002, 10:25 PM   #13
shoyn
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at parties and the like always have a glass in each hand!
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Unread 12-15-2002, 10:39 PM   #14
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creamed herring always works well...
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Unread 12-15-2002, 11:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
I've actually wondered about that line, you mean women BELONG to their husbands?
According to Halocho, a man is mekadesh a woman and she then belongs to him. I don't know why you are confused about this? Is it the influence of the goyshe world that makes you confused here?

That doesn't mean that the man could do with his wife whatever he wants, and a person is obligated to love his wife like himself, and to respect/honor her even more then himself, but that doesn't change the fact that a wife is in the words of the Ra"N in Kidushin (if I remember correctly) Kinyono shel Odom.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 11:51 PM   #16
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BTW, I remember hearing the answer "my mother taught me not to tuch things that don't belong to me" in the name of the Rebbe to a woman by dollars. But I'm not sure if I heard that one week after dollars (that it happened that day) or if I just heard it being said over as a story stam. Needs to be clarified, maybe someone else could help here.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 12:00 AM   #17
untervegens
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I know some people just explain very nicely that orthodox Jews don't shake hands or tuch the opposite gender, and most people respect that.
About what ChabadFriend wrote that it's not a stretch to say that a handshake isn't "derech chiba": That depends on the person. A modern person, who is used to shake hands with women, got so used to it, that it's not "derech chiba" anymore by him (although I'm not sure if such a person doesn't feel any difference between shaking the hand of another man and a woman, and also no difference between an alte bobbe or some young attractive looking woman...), whereas a Oholei Torah Bochur, who (hopefuly) never shook hands with women, would certainly feel some unwanted feelings...
I mean some people say the same thing about a hug, that in todays society it's not derech chiba anymore... With that attitude who knows where we might end up, giving the Pritzus which goes on.
A charedishe Yid (litvish, chasidish, yeshivish, whatever) doesn't befit him - es passt nisht- to shake hand with women.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 12:42 AM   #18
abiselseichel
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I've heard some shluchim reply something to the effect of let's shake hearts instead.
Other's say "it's our custom to nod/bow" which when put tjat way most people accept it.

BTW there was a whole shturem recently about this issue in the n.y. times (someone showed it to me) and there were answers written etc.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 01:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by abiselseichel
I've heard some shluchim reply something to the effect of let's shake hearts instead.
Other's say "it's our custom to nod/bow" which when put tjat way most people accept it.

BTW there was a whole shturem recently about this issue in the n.y. times (someone showed it to me) and there were answers written etc.
The New York Times Sunday Magazine has a column by one Randy Cohen entitled 'The Ethicist' which answers ethical questions posed to him. One question recently carried there was about an orthodox jewish real estate agent who, though being respectful declined to shake his woman clients hand, she wrote about her dillema to this Randy Cohen whether she should break off the business relationship because she was offended by this seemingly chauvinistic behaviour. He told here to break off the relationship as it was unacceptable, blah blah. Agudahs monthly newspaper whose name escapes me now carried a column from one of the frum askonim who is a lawyer castigating the Times who is so makpid to be tolerant , politically correct etc. now being so closeminded
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Unread 12-16-2002, 03:33 AM   #20
Dr. Yisroel
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I heard a line from a friend of mine in the name of Mr. Yale Zimmerman in Chicago who says:

"The last person who touched my hand has 11 of my children."
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Unread 12-16-2002, 03:37 AM   #21
Dr. Yisroel
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The following is a response I gave to someone who emailed me following a scheduled chat I ran in one of Jewish rooms on aol about 4 years ago on this subject.


I understand your concerns. Yet, it is not proper to take your anger out on religion. A Jew is A Jew, blame G-d!

Now to address your issues directly: The Torah says that a man and woman cannot touch one another out of wedlock. Due to the natural tendencies of men and woman, a simple handshake can become something much more threatening. A handshake is a form of intimate touching. The woman and man's hands join during the handshake, causing their skin to rub against one another. As strange as it may seem, the Orthodox do not permit handshaking in order to protect the men and women. G-d does not permit premaritial relations. By not even allowing a man and woman to touch through a casual handshake, it hinders the two people from attempting to have more intimate contact.

Imagine if our wonderfully moral and ethical society kept these laws imagine how many things would not take place on a regullar basis.

A touch is sacred. This is why CEO's go to private lessons on firm handshakes. Handshakes speak out for themselves!

Especially so, the touch between a man and woman. "It all begins with a handshake"!

Since you finished your letter with a spit in the face to G-d, I feel it only proper that I stick up for Him.

What is common decency? What are you basing your opinion on? Are you following the decency of a fashion magazine, such as Cosmo, which is filled with smut and pornography? Or perhaps your decency is based on shows from television... where people are having children out of wedlock and cheating on one another. Or maybe your decency is based on billboards full of ads for drinking and parties which are heavily based on sexuality for their form of advertisement? Where do you find your "common decency"? What do you base it on? The world of today has no common decency. Men change themselves into woman. Homosexuality runs rampant. Cheating and premaritial sex is not even taboo anymore. Just look at what everyday people are
wearing on the streets. Where has their common decency gone? Perhaps not all people want to see almost every aspect of their bodies. Perhaps orthodox Judisam is flawed. Maybe some aspects of it may seem extreme. However, it is based on truth, the torah. The only true form of common decency.

With blessings to you and your family,
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Last edited by Dr. Yisroel; 12-16-2002 at 03:41 AM.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 07:14 AM   #22
rebbelution
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I heard a story possibly about A.Shemtov and I think it was one of the president's wives who offered her hand. Rabbi S. took off his hat and took a bow. I believe they were very nispoel and thought he was 'the perfect gentleman'.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 08:19 AM   #23
yehonasan
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I have been a salesman for several years and come into contact with a lot of people. And of course, i have to go into a lot of offices on "cold calls" and introduce myself and my company. What is the first thing everyone does -- stick their hands out to shake mine. When it is a lady, I take one or two minutes to explain to her in a very respectful manner why I cannot shake her hand. When I do this I emphasize that I do NOT want to offend her or make her feel uncomfortable. After I sense that she is ok with it, I make a joke that the only woman I am allowed to touch is my wife.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 01:33 PM   #24
mendelp
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I've on occasion asked, when does a handshake change from business to harassment? which brings out the point of derech chibah quit clearly.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 02:35 PM   #25
walter
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hand shaking

On my first visit to a Shul on Yom Kippur I was unaware of this.., the prohabition of shaking of hands with the opposite sex. At the end of the services the Rabbi and his wife were at the door saying their goodbyes when I reached out to shake the hand of the Rabbi and his wife. She shook my hand in the presence of all. I only read later among orthodox circles this is a no no. I felt terrible about it for a long time. She was very gracious and understanding.., recognising I was an ignorant gentile.
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