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Unread 08-08-2005, 12:06 AM   #1
ReuvenB
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Empire Kosher Chickens

Where I live, the only kosher chickens are from Empire. They carry OU certification, but some do not accept Empire as kosher. When I've asked why, I've been told it's because they are so large that it is too difficult to adequately supervise the shechitah.

Do you eat Empire, or not? Why?
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Unread 08-08-2005, 12:22 AM   #2
Hiskashrus
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empire has had many stories.... i don't know anyone who eats it - although i wouldn't call it treif mammosh.

when picking a hechsher youv'e gotta go with personal refferences - the interenet is not a place for this
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Unread 08-08-2005, 12:25 AM   #3
Meshulam
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In general, Lubavitchers do not eat Empire. The reason is that Empire is not Chassidisher Shechita (why they aren't considered Chassidish is another question altogether). It is, however, a respected company. I have met very few people who actually object to kashrus of Empire. Quite the contrary: one Lubavitcher with very good yichus told me that his family ate Empire when he was younger.

(About their certification: they carry OU and KAJ... the exact same hashgocho as Rubashkins, which most Lubavitchers do eat).

With all of these issues, it is best to ask a Rov.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 07:33 AM   #4
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddush
empire has had many stories.... i don't know anyone who eats it - although i wouldn't call it treif mammosh.
And partially treif you would call it C"V?
As someone already mentioned, it now has 2 hashgochos, including KAJ, which was always accepted - even by "us" - as a good hashgocho (though not eaten by by those that were makpid on "Lubavitcher hashgocho").
Over the years (long before it had the KAJ) there always have been people - good upstanding chassidim and shluchim - who ate Empire's, and served it in their mosdos. OTOH, not everyone did.
I would greatly hesitate before being motzei la'az on meat eaten by many frum yidden as "not treif mamosh" without solid facts...
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Unread 08-08-2005, 09:27 AM   #5
mordechai7215
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I have however heard that the amount of meat put on the market is more then there should statistically be.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 09:45 AM   #6
ReuvenB
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The concern I have heard expressed is that the production quotas are high enough to necessitate haste in shechita that potentially endanger the quality of the shechita. This is from a Rav that I respect, hence I don't eat Empire.

This topic frequently comes up because when I describe where I live people always ask about kosher food. So I tell them that Empire chickens are available, but I don't eat them because the local Chabad Rav does not. Which inevitably leads to a discussion about Emprie's kashrus. Though I've never really counted, it seems that about 1/3 of Chabad families I have met will eat Empire.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 12:08 PM   #7
Torah613
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I suspect that the concern you raise applies to Rubashkin (and others) also.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 07:21 PM   #8
Hiskashrus
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that's only what iv'e heard about empire. when speaking about kashrus - the only things you can say are things that you hear. i heard like this and other people hear otherwise (i heard this about empire a long time ago - maybe things changed).

althogh i'm still skeptical of empire (because of what i heard about it) - but people can be wrong, and people also like to exaggerate
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:24 PM   #9
Meshulam
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Rubashkin has had its "stories" too, and at the end of the day, both Empire and Rubashkins have exactly the same hashgocho.

Indeed, Rubaskin himself has been the target of numerous accusations of wrongdoing. His buildings have been cited for hazardous waste mismanagement, and for unsafe conditions. Aaron Rubashkins Allentown, PA mill has repeatedly caught fire, and has repeatedly been the target of police accusation of criminal negligence. He has been accused of violating standards on animal cruelty. The Rubashkin's have even been accused of taking union dues and pocketing them rather than applying them to union coffers (that falls under the "thou shalt not steal" catergory.)

Yet, we only seem to talk about the handful of "stories" that are told about Empire (most of which are traced back a decade or more.)

I'm not casting aspersions at the Kashrus of Rubashkins. I'm just trying to frame this discussion with the proper perspective.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:39 PM   #10
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I was discussing with some friends about how much trust we put into Kashrus Certification and I was kind of wondering if we should be trusting so much.

I mean, I don't want to eat fruits and vegetables every day (although I would probably be better off without soda and all that junk), but it just kind of makes you hope that the Mashgichim out there understand that their work is very important and the responsibility on their head is big.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:40 PM   #11
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I know exactly what you mean :-)
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:43 PM   #12
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Well, there is one hechsher (star-K) that does not even make sure that there are mashgichim- they just sell the right to use their hechsher. Then there is all the shtus with the lettuce being ok or not, and things were not properly kashered between a run of cholov akum and cholov yisroel products, so now the cholov yisroel is really cholov akum, but nobody knows it and it isa out on the market, .......and these things have all happened for real....just keep it in mind.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:47 PM   #13
Yankel Nosson
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Become a tzaddik and all your food will be under the best hasgacha there is: hashgacha protis!
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Majorthinker
Well, there is one hechsher (star-K) that does not even make sure that there are mashgichim- they just sell the right to use their hechsher. Then there is all the shtus with the lettuce being ok or not, and things were not properly kashered between a run of cholov akum and cholov yisroel products, so now the cholov yisroel is really cholov akum, but nobody knows it and it isa out on the market
Before pointing fingers at certain hechshers, just keep in mind that there are many considerations when giving a hashgacha. Some places need a Mashgiach Temidi, others don't. Who came out with such rumors? Was it someone who knows what's really going on? Or someone who likes to come out every other week saying that another hechsher or product is no good?

Some people think they look more pious when they say, "Oh, you eat that?? I don't! It's not kosher enough!"
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:51 PM   #15
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LOL. But seriously, with all the hashgacha shtus, I would make all my own food if I felt it were humanly possible.
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Unread 08-08-2005, 10:56 PM   #16
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Yeah, a Star-K bag of lettuce I once opened had a ladybug in it. Ladybugs are not small. The smart-aleck Star-K guy replied "Oh well, did you know that Ladybugs eat archids?" (or orphids or something like that.)
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Unread 08-08-2005, 11:07 PM   #17
Torah613
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The ladybug probably came later, as that is not the type of bug that one checks for in lettuce.
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Unread 08-09-2005, 12:41 AM   #18
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my mother has yet to see a bug on her lettuce - and she checks every time under strong light (although she washes it later on anyway).

keep in mind that halacha isn't something factual, but rather something relative - meaning, that if you eat something that isn't kosher - it might be considered kosher depending on the conditions.

i doubt that there is a single piece of food in the world that doesn't have a chashash of being non-kosher (especially in the mosdos)
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Unread 08-09-2005, 12:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
The ladybug probably came later, as that is not the type of bug that one checks for in lettuce.
After they put the salad in the bag? Maybe. All I know is that I now wash bagged salad extra carefully because of that incident. (Which I guess I should have done anyways)
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Unread 08-09-2005, 12:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddush
my mother has yet to see a bug on her lettuce - and she checks every time under strong light (although she washes it later on anyway).

keep in mind that halacha isn't something factual, but rather something relative - meaning, that if you eat something that isn't kosher - it might be considered kosher depending on the conditions.

i doubt that there is a single piece of food in the world that doesn't have a chashash of being non-kosher (especially in the mosdos)
I'm guessing that you mean since we are so meticulous about the high quality of our Kashrus, there is room for error?
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Unread 08-09-2005, 05:22 AM   #21
mordechai7215
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Rabbi Levitansky in Simcha Monika is quoted as saying that if we knew the kind of kulos that they use in the hashgacha business one wouldn't bring the food in to his house (i.e. it's bellow one's own standards)
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Unread 08-09-2005, 08:47 AM   #22
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddush
my mother has yet to see a bug on her lettuce - and she checks every time under strong light (although she washes it later on anyway).
Funny - we do find sometimes (lately have given up eating Romaine as it is sometimes very infested)...
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Unread 09-14-2010, 03:56 PM   #23
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thanks to my finger and brought me here, i been doing a research on kosher new york Chickens for kosher new york. I found the discussion even this is an old post a informative one and good still a good source of information. Thank you.. searching for more.
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Unread 09-14-2010, 09:00 PM   #24
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADELAIDE45 View Post
thanks to my finger and brought me here, i been doing a research on Kosher Chickens for kosher new york. I found the discussion even this is an old post a informative one and good still a good source of information. Thank you.. searching for more.
do not take this discussion as valid for 5771
everything changed in Empire chickens nowadays
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Unread 09-19-2010, 06:59 AM   #25
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If only we could outlaw centralized meat production and bring it all back under the hands of local rabbanim as is outlined in shulchan aruch.

As is there is no accountability, and far to much reason not to tell the truth.

I have, at this point, met a few people who never eat meat because all meat is suspect neveila.
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