Why doesn't Lubavitch sleep in the Sukkah?

[Quotes from Frumteens]

[Posted 15 June 2001]

Lubavitcher Chassidim do not sleep in a Sukkah on Sukkos. Note: All Lubavitcher Chassidim in all previous generation did sleep in a sukkah (weather permitting), and NOT A SINGLE REBBE – CHABAD OR OTHERWISE – has ever instructed their Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. But the last Rebbe did.

The Rebbe's reasoning goes as follows … {His distorted rendition of the Rebbe’s Sichah will be quoted and dealt with in Part II} Obviously, anyone familiar with Halachah will not accept such “reasoning” to rip a Mitzvah out of the Torah. That the Gemora, the Shulchan Aruch, the responsa, and even the Seforim of Chabad all say that sleeping in a Sukkah is an obligation without exception. And even the Rebbe Rayatz NEVER exempted his Chasidim from sleeping in the Sukkah even though he should have, according to this reasoning, would be enough to reject this entire idea, never mind the impossibility of the entire reasoning.

And such reasoning would never be accepted anywhere else in Klall Yisroel, because anyone else would say OK so I don’t know why the Rebbe didn’t sleep in the Sukkah. But he never said we shouldn’t, and all the Halachah seforim say we should, so we will. In Lubavitch, however, being “like” the Rebbe takes precedence over following proper Halahcha.

[Posted 03 August 2001]

The issues is NOT that people do not sleep in a Sukkah - as you say, many people do not sleep in the Sukkah. Either because it's too cold, or because it's dangerous, or because they will be w/o their wives - all these are legitimate reasons, and probably that's why Lubavitcher Chasidim haven't slept in the Sukkah in Lubavitch. It was cold there.

The problem is, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that Halachicly all Lubavitcher Chasidim - whether marired or single, warm or cold, safe or unsafe - do not ahve to sleep in the Sukkah, not for any of the above reasons but simply because they are Lubavitcher Chasidim, and "Toras Chabad" brings the spiritual feelings into reality and the pain the Mitteler Rebbe felt by sleeping in the Sukkah needs to be felt by the Chassidim etc. etc.

Meaning, all other Jews in the world, including all other Chasidim, must sleep in the Sukkah. But for Lubavitcher Chasidim, ti si a higher level if they don't! And indeed, they are not obligated to do so.

The problem is not the sleeping in the Sukkah - for that can be due to many reasons (if they apply) - the problem is the idea that there is a NEW exemption from sleepign in the Sukkah - not cuz of cold or danger or being seperated form your wife - but simply because you are Chabad. Regardless of anything else.

No Chabad Rebbe ever said such a thing before.

[Tzemach]

The question “Why doesn’t Lubavitch sleep in the Sukkah” is one of the oldest questions on Lubavitch. In the beginning of 5730 the Rebbe addressed this question, and a condensed version of it was later printed in Likkutei Sichos Vol. 29. But instead of calming down the Misnagdim it had the opposite affect, now that the Rebbe gave an official explanation they no longer needed to direct their objection to Lubavitch – now they can point a finger at the Rebbe himself: “The Rebbe is changing the traditions of Chabad against Halachah”.

Before giving an accurate synopsis of the Rebbe's Sichah, I must first do away with the many misconceptions that is the basis of this question.

* * *

The Rebbe’s Disclaimer

Misnagdim who ask this question don’t know - or don’t want to know – that the Rebbe issued the following disclaimer together with the Sichah about Sukkah (Shabbos Parshas Breishis 5730) Here’s a free translation:

“I’ve heard some say that I said (in the previous Farbrengen) that one may not sleep in the Sukkah, this is not true at all. To the contrary, one who wants to sleep – should sleep gezunterheit, “v’shachavtah v’arvah snusechah” (Mishlei 2:24) and no one should bother him. I have only come to resolve the Minhag of our Rebbes and the Chabad custom not to sleep [in a Sukkah].

[At the end of the Sichah the Rebbe repeated:]

But the main thing is that I’m not saying one may not sleep in the Sukkah, and if some sleeps – one should not wake him up – and especially not in my name! To the contrary, “v’shachavtah v’arvah snusechah”. I have only come to explain Minhag Gedolim Ve’tovim – the Rebbes (including the Frierdiker Rebbe) who never slept in a Sukkah.” Ad kan leshono hakadosh.

I will elaborate on this below.

* * *

Did the other Chabad Rebbes sleep in the Sukkah?

Frumteens quotes the Rebbe as saying, "All the great sages from the days of Chazal down (and before) all slept in the Sukkah. Even in Chabad, the Mitteler Rebbe himself, and his father, the Baal HaTanya, and his son the Tzemach Tzedek, all slept in the Sukkah, as it says in Shulchan Aruch, as well as the Rav Shulchan Aruch of Chabad."

This false statement is a figment of the moderators imagination, and appears nowhere in the original Sichah. In reality, all Chabad Rebbe’s did not sleep in the Sukkah, starting with the Alter Rebbe himself. The Rebbe told Rav Tzvi Kahana, during ‘dollars’ on 10 Sivan 5750, “The Mittler Rebbe was a big ‘lamden’ and a son of the Alter Rebbe. He didn’t sleep in the Sukkah because this was the custom of his father the Alter Rebbe.”

* * *

Did other Rebbes instruct their Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah?

Frumteens asserts that “All Lubavitcher Chassidim in all previous generation did sleep in a Sukkah (weather permitting), and NOT A SINGLE REBBE – CHABAD OR OTHERWISE – has ever instructed their Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. But the last Rebbe did”.

Now back to reality:

(1) In general, Lubavitcher Chassidim did not sleep in the Sukkah since the Mittler Rebbe’s times. (Though there were notable exceptions such as R. Itche der Masmid and others.)

(2) The 2nd Rebbe of Chabad instructed his Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah:

“They once told the Mittler Rebbe that yungeleit are sleeping in the Sukkah, and he “gave them a real chelek” (rebuked them harshly) and said… “to sleep in a Makif”?! Adam Mu’ad Le’olam (a person is always responsible for his actions)… when a person is awake he can control himself, but when he is asleep and there is only a trace of vitality remains, he is not a ba’al Habayis over himself. This story was told by the Frierdiker Rebbe during the 1st night of Sukkos 5699 (S”H p. 295).

(3) "Chabad or otherwise": Chabad is not the only one to have this Minhag, the Rebbe told Rav Kahana "gantz Belz firt zich azoi" (this is the Minhag of the entire Belz community). The Bilguraye Rav said in the name of his father the Maharid of Belz that there were 3 things that his father "deviated from the Shluchan Aruch", one of these deviations was that he did not sleep in the Sukkah. (See Nitei Gavriel, Hilchos Rosh Hashanah Ch. 29 note 9 (5754 Edition))

* * *

Why didn’t Lubavitch Chassidim sleep in the Sukkah?

Frumteens speculates, “Either because it's too cold, or because it's dangerous, or because they will be w/o their wives - all these are legitimate reasons, and probably that's why Lubavitcher Chassidim haven't slept in the Sukkah in Lubavitch. It was cold there.”

But as anyone can see from the aforementioned story, the Chassidim did manage to sleep in the Sukkah until the Mittler Rebbe came along and told them not do. Dear moderator, if it were cold or dangerous outside the Chassidim would not be sleeping in the Sukkah to begin with. In addition, the Baal Shem Tov installed a furnace in his the Sukkah so that he would be able to sleep there, if the problem was the coldness a similar device could have been employed.

One who read the memoirs of Chabad-Chassidim in Russia will see how Chassidim risked their lives to build and eat in a Sukkah even in life-threatening circumstances, even in the labor camps of Siberia. Even today, Chassidim eat in the Sukkah even when it is pouring rain, and even on Shemini Atzeres, and even if it's only for a drink of water… Is it imaginable that such stubborn Chassidim would abandon the easy Mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah just because of “the cold”? The reason must be something much more profound.

In the Rebbe’s words (Sichos Kodesh, ibid):

“We can’t say that the Rabbeim didn’t sleep in the Sukkah because of physical discomfort, because they would certainly fulfill the Mitzvah b’shleimus, even if it isn’t so comfortable, and especially that there were times when it was warm, or it was possible to warm up the Sukkah, or that the Sukkah was made in the house – the roof was replaced with Sechach – and there was no tempature difference [between that room and other rooms of the house], so we need to understand why they didn’t sleep in the Sukkah”.

And we need not speculate, the Mittler Rebbe clearly stated that the principle reason is that a Chassid cannot sleep in a makif.

The moderator writes, "the problem is not the sleeping in the Sukkah - for that can be due to many reasons (if they apply) - the problem is the idea that there is a NEW exemption from sleeping in the Sukkah - not cuz of cold or danger or being seperated form your wife - but simply because you are Chabad. Regardless of anything else. No Chabad Rebbe ever said such a thing before."

The "new exemption" already existed since the time of the Mittler Rebbe. Even before the Rebbe defined what the exemption was we already knew that there was some new "exemption" that had nothing to do with the weather, danger, etc. (We will deal with the Rebbe’s difinition in the next post.)

* * *

Could it be that Mitteler Rebbe disregarded Halachah?

Now here’s a tough question: If these people were already sleeping in the Sukkah they obviously were not bothered by any physical factors which would constitute Tza’ar, they were doing what was required of them according to Halachah. So why did the Mittler Rebbe rebuke them? Why did he establish such a custom for years to come? Could it be that the Mittler Rebbe disregarded Halachah?

Obviously not. In the words of the Frierdiker Rebbe (about his father), “All his tenu’os and hanhagos were attuned and adjusted according to Nigleh, he was “A Shulchan Aruch Yid” – a person whose every move, even dibburei chol and tenu’os gufniyos were based on the Shulchan Aruch”. (Sefer Hasichos 5702 p. 1) This statement is also true in respect to the Rebbe’s who preceded the Rebbe Rashab. (See more on this in Oholei Lubavitch Nissan-Iyar 5755 p. 74-75) There is no such thing as “disregarding Halachah” c”v.

On the other hand, until the Rebbe, nobody answered this question. Nonetheless, this didn’t bother the Gedolei Yisroel who met with the Mittler Rebbe, the Tzemach Tzedek and the Rebbes after. They knew that when a Tzaddik starts a new Minhag he knows what he’s doing.

Bottom line: The reason why we didn’t sleep in the Sukkah is because it is not proper to sleep in such a where there are “Makifin D’binah”, how does this work out al pi Halachah? Chassidim had no idea, but if this is what the Rebbe told them to do, that’s what they did, and they trusted that there was a source/reasoning supporting it.

* * *

Our Minhag Today

Misnagdim create the impression as if until our generation only the great Chassidim and Rebbe’s did not sleep in the Sukkah, until the Rebbe came and “instructed his Chassidim” to stop sleeping in the Sukkah. The truth is however that Chabad Chassidim did not sleep in a Succah even before the Rebbe said this Sichah, continuing a tradition that goes back for many generations. Regardless of where Chassidim lived whether they lived in lands with a cold climate or lands with a warm climate, Chassidim knew that our Minhag is not to sleep in “Makifin D’binah”. The Rebbe’s Sichah came not to instruct Chassidim, but to explain the custom that already existed.

[The letters written by the Rebbe in as early as 5715 (5 Years after the Rebbe became Rebbe, and 15 years before the Rebbe’s Sichah) in response to people’s complaints about the “Chabad custom of not sleeping in the Sukkah” serve as testimony that the Rebbe didn’t innovate this Minhag (For 2 letters written in 5715: See letter #3796 in Igros Kodesh (11:414), and the letter posted by Col in the “Succot: Why don't we sleep in a Succah?” thread from L’chaim #688.) “v’Ha’emes Eid L’atzmo”.]

Frumteens writes, "I have said here numerous times the problem is not that they do not sleep in the sukkah per se, for that can be explained according to the already established reasons for such behavior. Like it's cold out, or if your wife remains in the house you dont have to sleep in the sukkah etc. The problem is the explanation that the Rebbe gave for it."

In truth however, as explained above, our minhag cannot be explained by any of the exisiting heterim, and without the Rebbe's explanation the only the support for this Minhag is our emunah that the Mitteler Rebbe and his memalei makom can be relied upon.

[This is also where "Minhag Mevatel Din" might come in, see Sdei Chemed in his entry on Minhag (Klal 37-38), that a Minhag which is started by a reknowned Gadol B'yisra'el - which the Miteler Rebbe certainly was - is continued even if it appears to be violating a Din, see Sedei Chemed for many examples. Also see Igros Kodesh ibid, where the Rebbe cites other examples of where even the most devout don’t follow Shulchan Aruch, for people don’t light the Menorah outside the home, even though it is a clear din Shas and Shluchan Aruch that we are required to do so. Note: the Rebbe does’t actually use the termonology “Minhag Mevatel Din” in this context.]

To be continued...

[Quotes from Frumteens]

The Rebbe's reasoning goes as follows:

1) The previous Rebbe, The Rebbe Rayatz, ate in the Sukkah but did not sleep in it. One would assume it was due to the cold weather or other difficulties involved with sleeping in a Sukah where he lived, which would legitimately dispense him from his obligation. But this cannot be, says the Lubavitcher Rebbe, mere physical difficulties would not bother the Rebbe Rayatz.

2) Therefore, the explanation must be that the Rebbe Rayatz could not sleep in the Sukkah because a different Chabad Rebbe, the “Mitteler” Rebbe, once remarked about the Sukkah, “How can one sleep in such a holy atmosphere”. Meaning, says the Rebbe, that it would be impossible to sleep in a Sukkah since it is so holy. And of course, according to Halachah he would be exempt form sleeping in the Sukkah, since the Sukkah bothers him, and Mitztaer Potur Min HaSukah.

3) Therefore, according to the “inner core” of the Mitzvah, sleeping outside of a Sukkah is permitted, and even preferable (Davar Ha’Raui).

4) But the Torah said to sleep in a Sukkah because the Torah speaks to the majority, who cannot feel the holiness of the Sukkah. But those who can, the Torah was never talking to them when it said to sleep in a Sukkah.

5) But the problem is, all the great sages from the days of Chazal down (and before) all slept in the Sukkah. Even in Chabad, the Mitteler Rebbe himself, and his father, the Baal HaTanya, and his son the Tzemach Tzedek, all slept in the Sukkah, as it says in Shulchan Aruch, as well as the Rav Shulchan Aruch of Chabad. The Rebbe therefore says, that it is not difficult to understand why we do not find previous sages not sleeping in the Sukkah, since their sleeping itself was part of their Avodas Hashem, so they were able to sleep in the Sukkah. Then he adds: “We can say that the above has to do with the revelation of Toras Chabad, which is meant to deal with the “penimius hatorah” in a way that even the human intellect can perceive it, to the point where it affects even the physical body and soul, and therefore the holiness of the Sukkah effects the person’s body and physical nature. And that is the reason that this Halachic concept was “revealed” by the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically (for nobody knew of it before), because of his mission in this world.

6) Next step: Even those who are not on the level to feel the holiness of the Sukkah are still exempt from sleeping in it anyway. Why? Because Chasidim, who are connected to their Rebbes follow their Minahgim. (That’s a quote). And more: If a Chosid does not follow in the ways of his Rebbe, he is automatically bothered by it, and therefore, he is in the category of “Hamitztaer potur min hasukah”. More, he adds: The chosid is mitztaer, why he isn’t mitztaer from the holiness of the Sukkah! He should be bothered, and if he’s not, that itself bothers him and therefore exempts him from the Sukkah.

Obviously, anyone familiar with Halachah will not accept such “reasoning” to rip a Mitzvah out of the Torah. That the Gemora, the Shulchan Aruch, the responsa, and even the Seforim of Chabad all say that sleeping in a Sukkah is an obligation without exception. And even the Rebbe Rayatz NEVER exempted his Chasidim from sleeping in the Sukkah even though he should have, according to this reasoning, would be enough to reject this entire idea, never mind the impossibility of the entire reasoning.

[Posted 08 October 2001]

His defense of tearing the Mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah out of the Torah is in Likkutei Sichos, and it doesn’t work. Any high school Yeshiva kid could recognize it as Halachically invalid. When I posted it here, even the Lubavitchers could not believe their own Rebbe said that. Check it out yourself and see if it makes any sense to you.

[Tzemach]

Harotzeh Lit'os Yit'eh

If someone would hear such questions being asked on a Gadol B'yisroel the immediate response would be "Neisi Sefer V'nechezi", let's take a Sefer and see what it says. Still don't understand? In cases where the Sefer is a derivative work, you look up the original source (in this case Sichos Kodesh). Still don't understand? Ask someone who is an expert on the subject.

But they are unwilling to do that. Instead FrumTeens posts a distorted "summary" of the Sichah, reminiscent of the early hand-written Tanyas intentionally distorted and altered by the Misnagdim, so that it contained words of folly and heresy. Little wonder that after reading his summary "Even the Lubavitchers {rightfully!} could not believe their own Rebbe said that".

The Rebbe is not Chas V'sholom "ripping out a Mitzvah of the Torah" based on some unusual reasoning, the Din is NOT that "that sleeping in a Sukkah in a Sukkah is an obligation without exception" -- Halachah itself stipulates that when one has discomfort from sleeping in the Sukkah he is exempt (Orach Chaim 640:4), the Rebbe's only Chiddush is the Tza'ar a Chassid experiences when he cannot follow in his Rebbe's ways also constitutes Tz'ar. (See below for a more detailed analysis.)

The Rebbe's Sichah

As explained above, when the Rebbe discusses the different categories of people in Chabad who are exempt from sleeping in a Sukkah the Rebbe is not determining that they are exempt, that is already established, and is Minhag Chabad for Dorei Doros. The purpose of this Sichah is only to explore why these people are exempt al pi nigleh.

Now in regard to Rebbes themselves, the heter for not sleeping in the Sukkah is very simple: These Tzaddikim (and Yechidei Segulah of the Chassidim) actually felt a very powerful level of G-dliness in their Sukkah (Makifin D'binah), and it would be impossible for them to fall asleep in such a holy place (see Vayeitzei 28:16). If you can't fall asleep in your Sukkah, because of the Sukkah, there is no question that you are exempt al pi Halachah.

But what about the rest of the Chassidim who didn’t feel these spiritual lights, and would have no problem falling assleep had they wanted to? Why is the custom that they too do not sleep in the Sukkah? To quote the Rebbe (Sichos Kodesh, ibid), “Why shouldn’t a Bar-Mitzvah Bochur in 5730 sleep in the Sukkah? He doesn’t feel the Makifin Dbinah!”

At the heart of the Rebbe’s reasoning is the concept that even spiritual tza’ar is considered tz’ar in respect to the dinim of Sukkah: For example, the Halachah is that if a person finds it hard to learn in the Sukkah, he may learn at home. (Sukkah 38b; Orach Chaim 639:4) Also, we are only required to live in the Sukkah the same way in which we live at home during the rest of the year -- teishvu-k’ein taduru (Sukkah, ibid). Now just like at home, even if he would have a spiritual tz’ar one would leave the house, the same is with Sukkah: if you have spiritual tz’ar you are exempt. (This is true even if the spiritual tz’ar is not because of the Sukkah itself, but because of an external factor.)

Since the day of the Baal Shem Tov, [many] Chassidim had attempted to emulate the ways of their Rabbeim (see Sefer Hasichos Summer 5700 p. 82), this was done to demonstrate and become attached to their Rabbeim. This behavior has it’s source in Chazal (see Sukkah 32b) – even when this behavior is a leniency (!). While of course, this consideration is NOT more important than following proper Halachah – we have no choice but to follow Halachah if – theoretically – there would be a conflict, but in the case of sleeping in the Sukkah there is no conflict: When a Chassid cannot -for whatever reason- follow the Minhag of his Rebbe, especially when the Rebbe expected the Chassidim to follow this Minhag, it causes spiritual tza’ar by the Chassid, and the Halachah itself dictates that when you have even spiritual tza’ar you are potur from sleeping in the Sukkah.

Just like if the Rebbe would tell a Chassid – “don’t sleep in this room of your house” – the Chassid would comply and move his bed elsewhere, the same applies to Sukkah because “teishvu k’ein taduru”.

And again, the Chiddush here is not that “going in the ways of your Rebbe” is more important than Halachah & Shluchan Aruch chas v’sholom, the only Chiddush is that when a Chassid cannot follow the ways of his Rebbe he has tza’ar. If this sounds far-fetched to misnagdim, it’s because they have no understanding of the (Chabad) Chassid/Rebbe relationship.

Now while this reason would apply to the majority of Chassidim, there are some Chassidim who would not have tza’ar because of the above reason. It would seem that these people would be obligated to sleep in the Sukkah because of their low status, although taking such a step would cause them embarrassment – it would effectively label them as low status people… and would be the equivalent of saying “Look everybody, I’m a grube (coarse) person!”

So the Rebbe says that it depends: If this embarrassment will cause spiritual tza’ar, “how can it be that I don’t care about the Rebbe’s vort?”, “Why am I on such a low level?” etc. then this tza’ar itself is enough to make one potur, otherwise “he is duty-bound to sleep in it, in accordance with the fullest meaning of taishvu k'ain taduru, to make his Succah his dwelling place to the utmost” (as the Rebbbe writes in the letter mentioned earlier).

FrumTeens writes (supposedly “quoting” the Rebbe)

4) But the Torah said to sleep in a Sukkah because the Torah speaks to the majority, who cannot feel the holiness of the Sukkah. But those who can, the Torah was never talking to them when it said to sleep in a Sukkah.

What a distortion! ‘torah al harov tedaber’ does not – chas v’sholom - mean that only the majority is obligated to do the Mitzvos. One who thinks this is p’shat of Torah al harov tedaber is a heretic! It means only that when Chazal define the details, and practical application of the Mitzvah are they “al rov tedaber” (see examples below). In the case of Sukkah, the geder of the Mitzvah of Sukkah is Teishvu ki’en taduru, and since by most people taduru means eating, drinking, and sleeping - Chzal defined the Mitzvah of Succah as such.

If the Torah itself would clearly state that the Mitzvah of Sukkah is eating, drinking, and sleeping, then there are no exceptions, not tza’ar, and not any other spiritual reasons can rip out a mitzvah of the torah: Pnimimyus Hatorah & Nigleh are one Torah, and there cannot be contradictions between them. But the essence of the Mitzvah is only ‘teishvu ki’en taduru’; the requirement of eating, drinking, and sleeping, is only the application of ‘taduru’ by Chazal (‘Torah’), i.e. Chazal have determined what peulos an average person must do in order to satisfy the ‘ke’in taduru’ requirement (‘al harov tedaber’).

An example from Hilchos Shabbos: There is a general obligation to enjoy Shabbos – Oneg. Chazal determined that enjoyment is accomplished through eating (Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 30:7) and especially the eating of fish (Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 242:2). But this is speaking to the majority. But if someone hates the taste of fish, or one who despises eating in general, then he fulfills the ‘oneg’ requirement by NOT eating (like one who wants to fast a ta’anis chalom (ayin Orach Chaim 288)), or by not eating fish. Actually, he is forbidden to eat fish – since he does not enjoy it.

Now if the actual Mitzvah would be to each fish on Shabbos, then “ein chachmah, v’ein tevunah v’ein eitzah neged Hashem” (Mishlei 21:30) and even if the eating would cause him severe anguish he would be required to eat, and we can’s say chas v’sholom “Torah al harov tedaber”, just like one who hates the taste of matzah isn’t exempt from eating matzah on pesach - chas v’sholom.

But since the Mitzvah is Oneg Shabbos, and the requirement to eat is only an application of this Mitzvah -- based on the consideration that the majority regard eating to be Oneg. Therefore, an individual who does not consider this Oneg is forbidden to eat.

The same guidelines apply to Sukkah as well. The geder of the Mitzvas Sukkah is (not eating, drinking, sleeping etc.) but teishvu ki’en taduru, and Chazal determining that – al pi rov – this is accomplished through eating drinking and sleeping etc. etc. but these guidelines do not apply to someone who has tza’ar from sleeping, kanal.

So we can appreciate, that there is actually no contradiction between the Makifin D’binah (which disturb one’s sleep) and Nigleh (which requires one to sleep). Because the fact on the ground remains that most people aren’t bothered by the makfin d’binah issue, and therefore Chazal included sleeping as part of taishvu ke’in taduru.

[The only difference between Sukkah and Shabbos, is that in our case the din of mitzta’er is not a side issue, but part of teishvu ki’en taduru itself (see Chasam Sofer on Siman 639:9). I.e., such a person is makayem the mitzvah of Sukkah through abstaining from sleeping in the Sukkah! (Just like someone who has a taanis chalom is makyem the mitzvah of Oneg Shabbos through abstaining from food – since this is how he has oneg – as stated clearly in Siman 288). Now, while in the case of taanis chalom the person actually accomplished the mitzvah through fasting, one who doesn’t eat fish on Shabbos obviously does not accomplish anything – not negative and not positive either. An average person cannot be said to be deriving enjoyment from abstaining from a specific food. So while he is doing the right thing, this in itself is not part of the Mitzvah of oneg. In the case of Sukkah however, the act of abstaining from sleeping in the Sukkah because of tza’ar is part of the mitzvah of ‘teishvu ki’en taduru’. Vedo”k.]

FrumTeens wrote:

The problem is, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that Halachicly all Lubavitcher Chasidim ... do not ahve to sleep in the Sukkah ... simply because they are Lubavitcher Chasidim, and "Toras Chabad" brings the spiritual feelings into reality and the pain the Mitteler Rebbe felt by sleeping in the Sukkah needs to be felt by the Chassidim etc. etc. Meaning, all other Jews in the world, including all other Chasidim, must sleep in the Sukkah. But for Lubavitcher Chasidim, ti si a higher level if they don't! And indeed, they are not obligated to do so.

FrumTeens, you have totally misunderstood the concept. The reason why all this applies only to Lubavitcher Chassidim, is not because we are on a higher level, but because the whole heter is based on the fact that OUR REBBES didn't sleep in the Sukkah, and OUR MITTLER REBBE told Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. Chassidim who follow other Rebbes obviously have no tza'ar from not going in the ways of the Chabad Rebbes, and are subsequently not eligible to the heter which stems from this tza'ar.

* * *

There is still alot more that can be added, and there are many more inaccuracies in FrumTeen's "review" of the Sichah, but i've written enough for now... for those of you who can, zil gemor: take out a Likkutei Sichos (29:211) or a Sichos Kodesh (5730: 2nd day Succos: 5; Day of Simchas Torah:9; Shabbos Breishis:7) for those of you who can't, post your questions here.

[Col]

frumteen wrote: "The reason that this Halachic concept was “revealed” by the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically (for nobody knew of it before), because of his mission in this world."

frumteen, the one who revealed this minhag was the mittler rebbe, not the previous rebbe. get your facts straight...

thanks tzemach for an awesome post! :p

[Chossid]

So when the Rebbe said that if one is sleeping he shouldn't be bothered, that means that the very fact that he fell asleep is a proof that he wasn't Mitztoeir. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

So the Chabad Shitoh is that if one is Mitztoeir in sleeping in a Succoh, so that he has a choice whether or not to sleep in it, he SHOULD take the heter.

Can someone please elaborate in more detail and depth on what the Mitteler Rebbe said.

[pretzel999]

.The Rebbe meant that it was not ossur to sleep in the sukka, but explained why even people who were not on the level of feeling the 'makifin' still followed the Rebbeims custom

[Chossid]

So if someone becomes a Chossid and doesn't know the reason behind the our Minhog of not sleeping in the Succoh, and therefore he doesn't know of any possible Tzar, he's going against Halochoh according to everyone?

Also, the Mitteler Rebbe told people to BeDavkoh have Tzar?

[Bittul]

Nope and Nope. Please learn the Sicha of the Rebbe detailing these and all other issues regarding sleeping in the Sukkah. This forum is not an exchange for actual Limud Hatorah.

[lambda]

What if you are honest enough to admit that you feel no tza'ar at all, and that you don't feel any real tza'ar because of that? Does the heter still apply?

[Kapote]

You do not feel anything as you are a goy. You go and mock my question about aveilus on my thread which shows you have no neshama. Halacha is ( I saw in a mlukat on sukkos imn all the stores) that one keeps goyim out of sukkas even cleaning ladies.

[Partzuf]

He wasn't mocking you. Go read my post there.

[stamayid]

Originally posted by Kapote Halacha is ( I saw in a mlukat on sukkos imn all the stores) that one keeps goyim out of sukkas even cleaning ladies.

Halacha? I'd like to see the source for such a halacha.

[Torah613]

The source IIRC is a kabalistic one (I think - don't have time to look now - it is brought in Kaf Hachaim.)

[masbir]

earlisit source Shach al Hatorah parshes Emor.

[Torah613]

Just looked it up - it is brought in Kaf Hachaim 639:6 in the name of Shach al Hatorah (like Masbir said), also brought in Beis Dovid # 444.
[Am I the only one who feels ... slightly sick at Kapotes tone (in post # 11 and other posts)? Forum rules?].

[shoyn]

<[Am I the only one who feels ... slightly sick at Kapotes tone (in post # 11 and other posts)? Forum rules?].>

no

[hishtatchus]

from a Lambdishe source
What if you are honest enough to admit that you feel no tza'ar at all, and that you don't feel any real tza'ar because of that? Does the heter still apply?

I asked a Shliach, and his response was something to the effect that "Once you start really pulling layers off a Chossid, you'll come to his core, where he truly wants to be a Chossid. At this point he surely will feel Tzaar. And if even at this point he doesn't feel Tzaar, he will feel Tzaar at the lack of it..."

There is a story about a Chossid who came to a Rebbe (I'm so precise!). He said that he doesn't care, and this bothers him. He then said that honestly, he really doesn't care that he doesn't care, but this he cares about, but truthfully he doesn't really care etc., until he fainted. The Rebbe said- "Nu, the fainting was real."

[Partzuf]

How far does this tza'ar extension go? What about non-Lubavitchers? Ashreinu Mah Tov Chelkeinu... even if they don't feel any tza'ar because they are a chossid, they should feel tza'ar because they don't feel the tza'ar of a chossid! And if they don't feel that, then they should surely feel tza'ar...

When does it actually end? If somebody learns Chassidus etc, but is honest with himself that he doesn't feel any tza'ar at all over this, should he sleep in a Sukkah?

[hishtatchus]

Chabad doesn't feel that if you're Belzer you should feel Tzaar that you're not a Lubavitcher.

[Maskil]

In a similar situation, since the svoro of Shalosh Seudos is similar, a chaver, a Chossid k'muvon, asked his rov, (a Lubavitcher, k'muvon) if he should wash for shalosh seudos, and the rov said he should!

[Kapote]

[Am I the only one who feels ... slightly sick at Kapotes tone (in post # 11 and other posts)? Forum rules?].

You obviously missed the comments he made to my aVEILUS THREAD which the mods deleted where he reveals he is really not interested in being Jewish to say the least

[Partzuf]

Kapote, I posted a response detailing how every line of masbir's post there was a specific leitzonus on another post. You didn't see it before the moderators deleted it, but other posters that did see it can definitely vouch for it. If you would like I can recreate the mareh makomos, but I do not have masbir's original post.

[Kapote]

frankly, Lambda/Partzuf I do not CARE AND they should block all the yous. TO teich Jewish ideas as to be coming and proving J for J's goals is not an acceptable parody to those who have lost loved ones to death and to J for J.

The book I saw it from was called Noi Sukkah, came out 2-3 yrs ago and I think it quoted in the footnotes more than just Kaf Hachaim for the source for keeping goyim out of sukkahs but I cannot find it right now.

[Partzuf]

Okay, Kapote, then you should PM masbir and tell him that. HE made the post with the references to ******ianity. Are you saying that masbir has no soul, should be kicked off of ChabadTalk, etc? lambda only made a remark on it that was intended to make it aware to people who were reading that it was leitzonus, because some people - including at least one moderator, apparently - didn't know!