Chasam Sofer and Rebbeim

[yehonasan]

Anybody know about the Chasam Sofer's relationship with the Rebbeim of his time -- which I think would be the Alter Rebbe and Mittler Rebbe (and maybe the Tzemach Tzedek).

[Torah613]

The CS brings the Tanya once.

[Bittul]

They had no direct relationship, but as mentioned in Chasidus somewhere, he was a Talmid Muvhak of R' Noson Adler who was a Talmid of the Maggid.

He fought a much different battle than the Rebbeim fought at that time - they were fighting to keep Haskalah out of Russia, while he was trying to defend the Orthodox Community of Germany against the Maskilim who obviously had made major inroads in that country.

[shoyn]

while it is true that the CS was a talmid of R NA, I don't think RNA was a talmid of the magid.

Rather as the Rebbe writes in several letters the CS was a talmid of the BAal Hafloo who was a talmid of the Maggid

[Torah613]

RNA was not a talmid of the Maggid.

[shpitzchabad]

IIRC the Rebbe once told someone at Yechidus that if he had the time he'd write a Sefer about how the CS's works were influenced by Chassidus.

Anyone know the source?

[Bittul]

Ummm... Sorry, please check facts first.

A) It's very clearly written that it was Nosson Adler who was (also - yes the Baal Haflooh I do know about) a Talmid of the Maggid.

B) The Chasam Sofer was NOT a Talmid of the Baal Haflo'oh. The Baal Haflo'oh became Rov in (Frankfurt?) right before the Chasam Sofer left.

[ChilinInCali]

It's very clearly written that it was Nosson Adler who was (also - yes the Baal Haflooh I do know about) a Talmid of the Maggid.

Clearly written- where?

[shoyn]

kindly share your sources as to both facts:

RNA was a talmid of the Maggid

The CS was not a Talmid of the baal hafloo

i don't have an IK handy, but i am quite sure the Rebbe refers to the CS being a talmid of the BH in several places

[ChilinInCali]

i don't have an IK handy, but i am quite sure the Rebbe refers to the CS being a talmid of the BH in several places

I did a search on otzar770, the words bal haflo'oh didn't even come up once. Although i might have spelt it wrong.

[pretzel999]

Originally posted by Bittul
They had no direct relationship, but as mentioned in Chasidus somewhere, he was a Talmid Muvhak of R' Noson Adler who was a Talmid of the Maggid.

He fought a much different battle than the Rebbeim fought at that time - they were fighting to keep Haskalah out of Russia, while he was trying to defend the Orthodox Community of Germany against the Maskilim who obviously had made major inroads in that country.

R'Nossen Adler TALMID OF tHE magid??? Now where would you have got that from??

[pretzel999]

Originally posted by Bittul
Ummm... Sorry, please check facts first.

A) It's very clearly written that it was Nosson Adler who was (also - yes the Baal Haflooh I do know about) a Talmid of the Maggid.

B) The Chasam Sofer was NOT a Talmid of the Baal Haflo'oh. The Baal Haflo'oh became Rov in (Frankfurt?) right before the Chasam Sofer left.

The Chasam Sofer always refers to the Haflo'oh as Moree Verabi!

[shoyn]

shpitz, recently there was a feaTure in hiskashrus about Rebbe and CS, maybe its brought there?

[pretzel999]

Just as an aside, the Ba'al Haflo'h son was also rov in Frankfurt, but it seems that he had no shaychus to chasidus

[shoyn]

eg in toras moishe parshas yisro p mem bais last para "...... veka'l mmv'r hafloo zts'l "

[pretzel999]

yup! interesting how people just make things up outa thin air! Happened to look up a teshuva in Chasam sofer just tonite,calls him moree verabee, with additional comments to how deep his havonoh was!

[pretzel999]

Originally posted by Torah613
The CS brings the Tanya once.

Very interesting. What is he quoting him about?

[masbir]

Just look no further than the the introduction to the A.R. S.A. and you will find that the AR met and got an haskama for his SA from the 2 brothers reb Shmelka and Reb Pinchos while the were in Mezritch before they went to assume their posts in Germany. Also see in Igros kodesh ADHZ a letter to the Baal hafloeh mentioning his stay in Mezritch were the AR was a steady at his "minyon".

It is a famous mystery why the name of the Magid is missing from his classic Panim Yofos. However, once the magid is mentioned in our parsha Beshalach! (a theory has it that his son who was a misnaged deleted all refrences)

The Haflaah came to be Rabbi of Frankfurt, tov kuf lamed beis and passed away in tof kuf samech heh. The Chasam Sofer passed away in Tof reish!

[pretzel999]

Thx for the references. The Haflo'h seems to have had an interesting shittah: as you mention there does not seem to a trail of his chasidishe side in his seforim. I think he also sided with the kehilla in frankfurt against R'Nooson Adlers diferent hanhogos, and as you mention his son who took over the Rabbonus had no shaychus to chasidus: it's quite a fascinating subject. Can you add anything else?

[ChilinInCali]

The chasam Sofer refers to The ba'al haflo'oh every time in his teshuvos as "moiri haGaon" (see for example OC 116), besides for once, where he refers to him as "Rabeinu hagadol, moiri hagaon" (EH1, 122). And pretzel, yes, there is one time he refers to him as "moiri v'rabi", but as I don't have the seforim in fromt of me, I forgot where. (Although the point is the same, moiri hagaon, moiri v'rabi, hainu hach).

Peretzel, where was that teshuve where he refers to his havana?

[pretzel999]

yoreh dea reish lamed heh at the end

[Torah613]

But Masbir, the CS left Frankfort as a teenager - IOW mid 5540's, I can't track down the exact year now, but before 5545 - he left when RNA left Frankfort (but didn't return with him). But he does refer do the Haflo'oh as his Rebbe.
The Rebbe told R' Avrohom Sofer in yechidus many great things about the CS (RAS was an einekel), IIRC he told him that he wuld show how it is mechuvan al pi Kabolo (I think he was referring to his "poems").
I think there is one bilti mugah sicha (from the first years?) where he refers to RNA as a "chosid" (?), but I think it very questionable if it is reliable, as there is no source for this concerning RNA.
I have seen it brought in the name of the Imrei Emes of Gur, about the son of the Haflo'oh (the "Machneh Levi"), that he deleted all references to the Maggid (except once or twice).
Some misnagdim want to deny the Haflo'ohs connection to Chassidus.
The CS brings the Tanya in CS al Hatorah (Stern) Parshas Bahaloscho, on the Posk "Vehoasafsuf asher bekirbo" (11:4), explaining the posuk according to the yesod that there are 2 nefoshos. The pelah is, that that piece was written 5563 - 6 years after the Tanya was printed.

[Torah613]

There is also the famous story, that the Rebbe Maharash wanted to do a shidduch with the descendents of the CS, and he married off one of his sons (RMM?) to Soroh, daughter of R' Akiva Kornitzer, SIL of R' Shimon Sofer - one of the sons of the CS, and Rov in Krakaw - but the marriage didn't last.

[Torah613]

Just found in Sichos of Shabbos Chol Hamoed Sukkos 5711 bilti mugah, that the CS was a talmud muvhak of RNA, and RNA was a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh, who was a talmid of the Magid, which is why there are Chassidishe verter in CS, ayin shom.
But as I wrote, it being "bilti mugah", I think it "tzorich iyon godol" and a peleh to refer to RNA as a talmud muvhak of the Haflo'oh.
Masbir?

[pretzel999]

dos eez takeh a peleh otsum! i do not know if the years even match, and i was under the impression that they were the same age or maybe RN'A was older, also it seems they had a disagreement, which led to RN'A departure (i think it was with the kehilla, but Haflo'oh sided agaiNst RN'A I DON'T KNOW DETAILS MAYBE SOMEONE COULD FILL IN)About some saying Haflo'oh had no chasidic connections: it's obvious that he was not noiheg bedarkei hachasidim in Germany, and his son being totally non chasidic and his memaleh mokom would raise the question , why he was not? it would seem that the Haflooh had decided not to pass it on. The whole thing is very unclear