Frum Jews having a pet at home

[mosheh5769]

what are the Halakhic problems that could cause the fact of having a pet (a dog or a cat, for example)?

And how is it that it is unusual for frum jews to have a pet at home? (I noticed that many children of Meah Shearim, for example, are afraid of dogs.) I remember last year, in a discussion with my Mashpia, he told me a story involving a dog and told me that in the prewar period, there were many more religious Jews with a dog (but it was usually for guarding the house, for security measures).

[Torah613]

Besides maybe Shabbas (depending if you hold pets are muktza or not) I cannot think of any.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Besides maybe Shabbas (depending if you hold pets are muktza or not) I cannot think of any.

I thought that an animal was automatically muktza! Who hold otherwise?

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Touching a dead non kosher animal is relevant for the halochos of tumah and taharoh - See Rashi on the posuk you quoted (שמיני יא, ח).

So, this apples also to pets?!

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

I thought that an animal was automatically muktza! Who hold otherwise?

Any good present day sefer on Muktzah will bring the discussion.

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

So, this apples also to pets?!

I don't understand at all what you are asking.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Any good present day sefer on Muktzah will bring the discussion.

Ok, but the Gemoroh (in Shaabbos, but I don't remember the exact daf) says that animals are muktzah on Shabbes. R' Moshe Feinstein and R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (among others) held that pets are muktzah. I'm not aware of a single posek who held otherwise!

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

I don't understand at all what you are asking.

You said that:

Originally Posted by Torah613

Touching a dead non kosher animal is relevant for the halochos of tumah and taharoh - See Rashi on the posuk you quoted (שמיני יא, ח).

So we cannot touch a pet who has died.

[Torah613]

Did you look up the Rashi?

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

Ok, but the Gemoroh (in Shaabbos, but I don't remember the exact daf) says that animals are muktzah on Shabbes. R' Moshe Feinstein and R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (among others) held that pets are muktzah. I'm not aware of a single posek who held otherwise!

Start with Shmirah Shabbos Kehilchoso Perek 27 footnote 96.
Like I said, there is discussion on this. Some are lenient.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Did you look up the Rashi?

Yes I did.

Ho, sorry, I didn't read very well:

ובנבלתם לא תגעו: יכול יהו ישראל מוזהרים על מגע נבלה, תלמוד לומר אמור אל הכהנים וגו' (ויקרא כא א), כהנים מוזהרין ואין ישראל מוזהרין. קל וחומר מעתה ומה טומאת מת חמורה, לא הזהיר בה אלא כהנים, טומאת נבלה קלה לא כל שכן. ומה תלמוד לומר לא תגעו, ברגל. זהו שאמרו חייב אדם לטהר עצמו ברגל

So it doesn't apply to ordinary Jews only to Kohanim. The posuk came to teach us that only on yomim tovim, it is forbidden.

Sorry.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Start with Shmirah Shabbos Kehilchoso Perek 27 footnote 96.
Like I said, there is discussion on this. Some are lenient.

Thank you. I'll try to check that reference when I get "free time". Now I must prepare myself for Mincha. Thanks for the source.

[Torah613]

Today it would not apply to Kohanim either, as it is only relevant to avodah.

[chossidnistar]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

I thought that an animal was automatically muktza! Who hold otherwise?

Rabbi M Feinstein (igros Moshe, OC 5-22)

[Torah613]

No, that addition is from the editor of the IM. A fascinating example of the complaint against that volume.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by chossidnistar

Rabbi M Feinstein (igros Moshe, OC 5-22)

R' Feinstein paskened that it was muktzah. I'm very sure of me.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

what are the Halakhic problems that could cause the fact of having a pet (a dog or a cat, for example)?

And how is it that it is unusual for frum jews to have a pet at home? (I noticed that many children of Meah Shearim, for example, are afraid of dogs.) I remember last year, in a discussion with my Mashpia, he told me a story involving a dog and told me that in the prewar period, there were many more religious Jews with a dog (but it was usually for guarding the house, for security measures).

Leaving aside the (IMHO irrational) Jewish fear of dogs, there are some issues you should be aware of with dogs (and pets in general). Those issues include:

Basar B'chalav: Your animal's food does not have to be kosher -- but it cannot be a product that was cooked with milk and meat together. I have hamsters right now and I'm almost positive that the pet store owners must think I'm nuts when I read the ingredients in a package of hamster food.

Chametz on Pesach: Likewise, you cannot own, nor feed to your animals food that is chametz. For our hamsters, we give them various kitniyos products (which, we, as Ashkenazim cannot eat, but can be fed to our pets) such as millet, sunflower seeds, corn, etc.). For larger animals (dogs, cats, etc.) you may need to feed them actual meat and/or fish products for the duration.

Neutering/spaying: For hamsters this isn't a big deal, but for dogs and cats it is. There are big problems with spaying or neutering an animal. Hiring a non-Jew to do is is likely to be a problem as well. I would think that buying one that is already spayed/neutered is not as much of a problem, but I would advise you to CYLOR.

Walking your dog on Shabbos: Puttting aside potential issues of the animal being muktzah, if you live in an area without an eruv, using a leash could be problematic.

Trapping on Shabbos: This could be an issue in certain circumstances. If you have company coming over and they're afraid of the dog, there may be issues with locking it in a room. As an aside, we had an issue with one of our hamsters a while ago. One of them escaped from his cage on a Shabbos afternoon. (It was really cute watching him climb up the stairs!) Not only could we not pick it up (due to muktzah issues -- which are Rabbinical in nature), we couldn't even "lure" him into a safe place until after Shabbos -- trapping animals is one of the 39 melachos.

There may well be other issues involved, but those are some of the ones off the top of my head.

It can be done -- we used to have two dogs and now we have hamsters -- but you have to be aware of potential issues.

The Wolf (who is NOT a pet)

[Torah613]

Wolf, very nice. I was thinking more along the lines of halachik issues about the actual having of a pet, prerhaps even frowning against having a pet, not halochos that pertain to pets, hence my answer.. But - you obviously have experience the experience of actually owning one, which I am lacking.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Wolf, very nice. I was thinking more along the lines of halachik issues about the actual having of a pet, prerhaps even frowning against having a pet, not halochos that pertain to pets, hence my answer.. But - you obviously have experience the experience of actually owning one, which I am lacking.

Aside from not having dangerous animals (however you choose to define that) there aren't any about actually having one vs. not having one. You're probably wondering about hashkafic issues.

The Wolf

[mosheh5769]

Well done. You look like a pro so I trust you. Thank you. I think we should think twice before having a dog or a cat.

Another question, but I think the answer is no: are we allowed to sterilize them?

[mosheh5769]

on castration, I have fiound that some opinions are of the opinion that the prohibition does not apply to non-Jews and that laws regarding males and females are different, and so the question is very complicated, it would be better to get the guidance of a Rabbi.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

Well done. You look like a pro so I trust you.

I have experience with pets, but I'm not a Rav. As always, CYLOR.

Thank you. I think we should think twice before having a dog or a cat.

It can work, but you have to decide how much of an issue it is for you. I would have a dog now if not for certain members of my family having allergies. Hence we have hamsters.

Another question, but I think the answer is no: are we allowed to sterilize them?

That's what spaying/neutering is. See above.

The Wolf

[mosheh5769]

the prohibition of castrating males is DeOrayta, while some authorities believe that the prohibition to spay females is DeRabbanan. implying that if the prohibition is rabbinic a Jew has the right to entrust their pet to a non-Jew for surgery: Torah is not regarding the non-Jew as being concerned by rabbinical prohibitions at the request of the Jew, and the Jew does not violate the prohibition in this case to "place an obstacle before the blind".

Among those who paskened that it was a Rabbinical prohibition, The Turei Zahav (Taz) says that what is prohibited in the castration of males is the act of mutilating, creasing or crushing, in the words used in the psukim. Since the female reproductive organs are internalized, unlike the male, the act of castration, if we restrict ourselves to terms explicitly used by the biblical psukim, is directed only to the anatomical structures that cover the reproductive organs, and harm to the reproductive system itself is indirect: the prohibition of female sterilization is rabbinic. He adds, however, the prohibition of Tsaar Baalei chayim, prohibition of inflicting suffering on animals, in such cases.

but as I said, others say that the prohibition is DeOraysa, as for males.

Complicated...better not to have pets like dogs or cats.

aAparently there is a little less problem with a hamster (I really don't want to buy pets, it's just a question that crossed my mind last week).

[mosheh5769]

Yees, I forgot the source: Turei Zahav on E.Ch. 5:11. You can also see Igros Moshe, E;Ch 4:34. But not everyone agree.

(I have just realize that there is also another problem: Euthanasia: when the pet suffers, can we shoot it or not, etc.. So, finally, there are many more problems than I have thought.)

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Wolf

Aside from not having dangerous animals (however you choose to define that) there aren't any about actually having one vs. not having one. You're probably wondering about hashkafic issues.

The Wolf

No, I have no hashkafic issues with owning pets.