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Unread 07-05-2009, 10:11 PM   #1
EitanDayan
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This is troubling

I have long been a proponent of the idea that the Rebbe can be Moshiach, but that he isn't necessarily Moshiach; that there could be others who could be as well. However, someone pointed me to this today, which I find very troubling:

"It cannot be literally said that Dovid will be Moshiach, because the King Moshiach comes before the geulah, before techias hamesim, because techias hamesim is the final great miracle before G-d reveals Himself. Thus, it cannot be literally said that Moshiach comes from the Dead"
(Lekutei Sichot, Vayigash, Lamed-Hey, Page 206, footnote #6)

Can anyone explain if there is a way around this that makes it possible for Moshiach to still be from mes?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 12:29 AM   #2
Yitzy
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Use the search function please.
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Unread 07-06-2009, 02:05 AM   #3
EitanDayan
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What exactly should I be searching for?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 08:30 AM   #4
shlucha14
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The many (dozens?) of other threads on Moshiach that answer this question very nicely.
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Unread 07-06-2009, 08:48 AM   #5
Torah613
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...and many in those threads use precisely this sicha to refute certain beliefs...
I am troubled, by the way the original question was phrased.
It is also a classic example, of forming an opinion, without having all the facts (no offense meant, but such an approach is was should be troubling, no?).
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Unread 07-06-2009, 08:51 AM   #6
Torah613
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You can start with this thread. There are many others:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73
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Unread 07-06-2009, 10:59 PM   #7
EitanDayan
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My point was that my opinion had not changed, but that I wanted an explanation of the sicha that continues to allow for the Rebbe to be moshiach, just to put my mind at ease.

Thank you for the link.
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Unread 07-06-2009, 11:56 PM   #8
EitanDayan
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Okay I've read through 10-odd pages of convoluted fighting and not a single clear answer to the question... I need someone to just tell me, poshut, how can the Rebbe be Moshiach after histalkus if he himself says this in his sicha?
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Unread 07-06-2009, 11:57 PM   #9
Torah613
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1) Why should your mind not be at ease? For arguments sake - if something is not true, then you should be happy that your opinion is compatible with Torah!
2) Maybe (just maybe), your opinion should change based on the evidence?
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Unread 07-07-2009, 12:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EitanDayan View Post
My point was that my opinion had not changed, but that I wanted an explanation of the sicha that continues to allow for the Rebbe to be moshiach, just to put my mind at ease.

Thank you for the link.
if your opinion is based in ergesh, why do you need to accomodate it?
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Unread 07-07-2009, 02:24 AM   #11
EitanDayan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
1) Why should your mind not be at ease? For arguments sake - if something is not true, then you should be happy that your opinion is compatible with Torah!
2) Maybe (just maybe), your opinion should change based on the evidence?
Well of course, but I assumed (erroneously, perhaps) that others, meshichists included, had read this sicha and come to terms with it without changing their beliefs. My desire is to know how.
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Unread 07-07-2009, 02:58 AM   #12
Kookoo Kabalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EitanDayan View Post
Well of course, but I assumed (erroneously, perhaps) that others, meshichists included, had read this sicha and come to terms with it without changing their beliefs. My desire is to know how.
One way, and an attitude adopted by many, is to take things a step further - claiming that the Rebbe is still alive. With this belief (though you would need to answer on other things) one would not need to answer to the "Moshiach from the dead" concept.
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Unread 07-07-2009, 03:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist View Post
One way, and an attitude adopted by many, is to take things a step further - claiming that the Rebbe is still alive. With this belief (though you would need to answer on other things) one would not need to answer to the "Moshiach from the dead" concept.
I'm sure that there's a way to reconcile the sicha without claiming that the Rebbe's guf is still physically with us, breathing, and walking. No disrespect intended to those who do believe that.

Well, it might be reconciliable with this Sicha, but definitely not with some other ones...
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Unread 04-25-2012, 11:39 PM   #14
DW Duke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EitanDayan View Post
I have long been a proponent of the idea that the Rebbe can be Moshiach, but that he isn't necessarily Moshiach; that there could be others who could be as well. However, someone pointed me to this today, which I find very troubling:

"It cannot be literally said that Dovid will be Moshiach, because the King Moshiach comes before the geulah, before techias hamesim, because techias hamesim is the final great miracle before G-d reveals Himself. Thus, it cannot be literally said that Moshiach comes from the Dead"
(Lekutei Sichot, Vayigash, Lamed-Hey, Page 206, footnote #6)

Can anyone explain if there is a way around this that makes it possible for Moshiach to still be from mes?
No. No.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 02:12 AM   #15
FlyingAxe
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We can't say that Dovid HaMelech is Moshiach, because he is not Nosi HaDor of this generation. We can still have a person who is nistalek being Nosi HaDor, if the dor is still following him. If, during the process of following this person, the dor brings geulah, it can be said that the person is Moshiach. He doesn't need to come back from meisim (until the end), or be said to be still alive (in whatever sense). The simple idea is: the person started the momentum, then was nistalek, then the geulah happened because of the momentum he made. Hence, he is Moshiach.

Of course, the bottom line is that his talmidim must utilize the momentum.
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