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-   -   Yerida L'tzoirech Aliya... (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=12528)

noahidelaws 10-17-2006 11:51 AM

Yerida L'tzoirech Aliya...
 
[B]Threads merged - Smirnoff.[/B]

I've also been searching for a source for the concept that [URL="http://otzar770.com/library/display_page.asp?nPageNumber=196&ilSC=40&nBookId=177&cPartLetter=b"]yeridah tzorech aliyah[/URL], and strangely, I can't find it. Can anyone help me?

Torah613 10-17-2006 01:46 PM

Off the top of my head, I would say it is a svoro, as implied in Tanya Perek 36. But what do I know? Gevurah and the King will probably source it in Kabala and Maharal...

noahidelaws 10-18-2006 12:34 AM

If you're referencing it in Tanya, perek 36 is a very weak source, though it's somewhat implied there in connection with the yerida to create low olamos. You'd want to better refer to perek 31, where it says clearly that yeridah tzorech aliyah. My question is what is the source for the concept that EVERY yerida is tzorech aliyah, not just yeridas haneshomo lemato.

noahidelaws 10-19-2006 12:15 PM

In Hisvaaduyos 5747, v. 2, p. 407, the Rebbe says: "This enabled him [the Frierdiker Rebbe] to spend the last ten years of his life disseminating Judaism, and striving to civilize the gentile world as well, as is known and famous, and has been printed." What is the Rebbe referring to, and where has it been printed?

Gevurah 10-20-2006 11:45 AM

maharal...stop making jokes...

its certainly all over the Big "Polishers"...Degel machane Ephraim, pri Aretz (MM of Vitebsk), Chernobler, Koznitzer, ....etc etc... exact

Go see the marei mekomos books to Tanya....the answer should be there...

as for kabbalah... I saw something related to in the Ramak but need to look more closely...

its erev Shabbas....


8th??

Gevurah 10-20-2006 12:05 PM

NL... dangerous....there is clearly an earlier source as someone (booo hiss) thought every yeridah was for an aliyah and thus cuased havoc back in 1666.

even Breslov :snide:

for comparative nigle humor see Sefer haChinuch mitzvah 410.

actually seriously... Makkos 7b

[URL]http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=145212[/URL]

noahidelaws 10-21-2006 07:45 AM

The 1st two references have nothing to do with the principle of a yerida and aliyah ruchnis. The last one does, but it doesn't state there [Ben Porat Yossef, Vayechi, p. 85a (and see there also p. 85b), and Me’or Einayim, Va’etchanan, p. 62b-c.]--these sforim are not tachas yodi, so if anyone else can check the reference, I'd appreciate it] that this is a general principle. It only says it in connection with ha'alo'as machshovos zoros bifrat.

RebLazer 10-22-2006 12:28 AM

[QUOTE=noahidelaws;125675]I've also been searching for a source for the concept that [URL="http://otzar770.com/library/display_page.asp?nPageNumber=196&ilSC=40&nBookId=177&cPartLetter=b"]yeridah tzorech aliyah[/URL], and strangely, I can't find it. Can anyone help me?[/QUOTE]
[B]Tzavaas HaRivash[/B]
[RIGHT]סד. פעמים שנופל אדם ממדרגה מחמת עצמו שהשי"ת יודע שהוא צריך לכך ופעמים העולם גורמים שיפול אדם ממדריגתו והירידה היא לצורך עליה כדי לבוא למדרגה גדולה כמ"ש הוא ינהגנו על מות וכתיב וירד אברם מצרימה ויעל אברם ממצרים אברם היא הנשמה ומצרים הם הקליפות[/RIGHT]:

[B]Igrah De'Kala 107a[/B][RIGHT]
דלפעמים יארע לצדיק גדול ההולך בדביקות ותשוקה הנכבדת לבורא עולם, יארע לו לפעמים שיפול ממדריגתו, וקבלנו מהצדיקים שלא יתעצב בזה כי ירידה זו לצורך עליה, כי באם היה עולה במדריגה אחר מדריגה בלי הפסק היה מתבטל ממציאותו, על כן מסתלקין מעליו המוחין דגדלות, ועל ידי זה מתחזקים הכלים בעוסקו במצות מעשיות בעשיה ממש, ויכול לסבול אחר כך אור חדש הנמשך עליו על ידי התעוררת[/RIGHT]:

[B]Tzikas HaTzadik[/B] par. 67
[RIGHT]בכל מדרגה שהוא עולה יש לו לחזור ולשוב על חטאיו וזהו ענין חטאתי נגדי תמיד אף על פי שהאמין שכבר נתקבלה תשובתו מכל מקום לפי שהוא לא הי' עומד ובכל יום הי' עולה ממדריגה למדריגה. ונודע דברי האריז"ל כי בג"ע כל עת שמעלין למדרגה יותר גדולה מוסיפין לדקדק עליו בחטאיו ולהענישו על כל חטא קטן וכ"ה בעוה"ז. וזהו טעם ירידה לצורך עליה המבואר בספרים שעת שמדקדקים בו הוא עת הירידה ואז צריך תשובה. ועגמת נפש שיש לו מחטאיו הוא העונש כמש"ל אות נ"ז ועי"ז יזכה לעליה:[/RIGHT]

noahidelaws 10-22-2006 11:56 PM

thanks, but number is that exactly in Tzavo'as HoRivosh?

RebLazer 10-23-2006 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=noahidelaws;126002]thanks, but number is that exactly in Tzavo'as HoRivosh?[/QUOTE]Hanagos Yesharos, par. 64.

Gevurah 10-23-2006 12:21 PM

so is taka a Chiddush of the BST?

The Eighth King 10-23-2006 01:32 PM

[QUOTE=Torah613;125684]the King will probably source it in Kabala and Maharal...[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Gevurah;125880]8th??[/QUOTE][As I understand it] Much older discussion and question than besht although terms might be new (and there are updated answers etc)... Will G-d willing provide page numbers when I return from my travels...

Kookoo Kabalist 02-26-2012 05:06 PM

Yerida L'tzoirech Aliya...
 
Where did the "yerida l'tzoirech aliya" idea originate?

Gevurah 02-26-2012 07:16 PM

See
[url]http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/145212/jewish/Basic-Concepts-in-Tzavaat-Harivash.htm#footnoteRef115a145212[/url]

See nigle Sefer Hachinuch 410

I challenge someone to find the term itself before Chassidus.

Torah613 02-26-2012 07:46 PM

Oh, please. For that you could have brought Makos 8b...:). He obviously means the concept in chassidus.

Kookoo Kabalist 02-26-2012 09:45 PM

[QUOTE=Gevurah;171373]I challenge someone to find the term itself before Chassidus.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Torah613;171374]He obviously means the concept in chassidus.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I was asking...

Rabbi_M 04-03-2012 03:45 PM

In footnotes, this is usually sourced to Ohr Hatorah from the Tzemach Tzedek. Though an earlier source would be where this is actually written in Likutei Torah. AFAIK, that's as far back as this idea goes.

Rabbi_M 04-20-2012 01:10 AM

I stand corrected. [URL]http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=2813[/URL]

See post #17 and onward.

Gevurah 04-20-2012 10:11 AM

How do you stand?:ct-freak:

Torah I did bring Makkos 6 years ago :laugh:

Gevurah 04-20-2012 10:25 AM

Some might say the concept was preceded by Aveira Lishmah
but Chillin disagrees here
[url]http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=2745[/url]

Rabbi_M 04-20-2012 10:53 AM

[quote=Gevurah;171689]How do you stand?:ct-freak:[/quote]
Are you taking issue with something? If you are, I'm not sure with what.

Gevurah 04-20-2012 11:30 AM

I already in the first reply linked the concept to the BST who preceded the TT.
If you had searched CT b4, u would c other chassidus already quoted as well.

Torah613 04-20-2012 12:23 PM

[QUOTE=Gevurah;171689]How do you stand?:ct-freak:

Torah I did bring Makkos 6 years ago :laugh:[/QUOTE]Yes, I see that now...

Rabbi_M 04-20-2012 01:51 PM

What caught my eye when learning, is that the classic source for the concept as brought in marei m'koimos all throughout is: "Ohr Hatorah [D'vorim vol 2.] Eikev pg 481 and the citations brought there". With sources found in early Chassidus, why did all the editors seem to struggle over finding an actual "source" for this idea? As klal though, the T"T that I mentioned, has always become the "source" as penned down in seforim.

I thought that was pretty odd when I found the A"R to talk about this in Likutei Torah (as I mentioned in my first post). But now that the source shows to be in the BST's toiros as well, that only makes things even more odd...

Rabbi_M 04-20-2012 02:32 PM

From what I've seen, the T"T I mentioned is used in the following places:

The new print of Samech Vov in footnote 52 on pg 319; the R"M in lamed ches - pg 34 footnote 74; pg 165 footnote 1133; pg 477 footnote 21; the R"M in reish mem (vol 1) - pg 12 footnote 59; pg 96 footnote 33; pg 323 footnote 40; pg 426 footnote 71; pg 446 footnote 9; the R"M in reish mem (vol 2) - pg 23 footnote 322; pg 610 footnote 44; pg 728 footnote 112; pg 739 footnote 6.

These are just a few places I jotted down just in order to establish my point. But there are really many tens and tens of places that I didn't even mention - because it would just be too long to write out. So far, from what I've seen, they all bring this standalone citation...

In that maamor the T"T brings about 10 different maamorim in his citations on this idea, the earliest dating back to the A"R. It's interesting that the vort from the BST didn't get any mention in reference to this topic as addressed in sifrei Chassidus througought (as I've seen so far), neither from the T"T (or other Rebbeim in that case), or from the editors.


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