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-   -   confused (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=9578)

skittels 08-12-2008 06:57 PM

confused
 
What is wrong talking 2 a guy just as a friend not love... just as a girl and a girl talk so why cant it go with a girl and boy?

Meshulam 08-13-2008 12:54 AM

Look around in the Teenagers section. You certainly aren't the first person who has come up with the "chiddush" that platonic relationships between boys and girls are ok. Suffice it to say, that's an easy claim to make when one is young and stupid. Experience proves you wrong.

But, that need not be the bottom line on the matter. The bottom line is that the Rebbeim, and the Chazal have made this issue clear (despite the effort on the part of some machti'ei HaRabbim to muddy the waters): men and women should be very separate from one another, especially during teenage years.

Majorthinker 08-13-2008 04:50 AM

Different question:
What if you're asked to help a member of the opposite gender? The matter at hand is very important, and you would be doing it anonymously, over the internet. You can also cut contact as soon as the matter is resolved. Is it justified then?

skittels 08-13-2008 06:41 AM

When it comes 2 these sit every1 makes there own halacha up so i don't get who 2 believe or not.

guest 08-13-2008 06:48 AM

I often asked that question but through experience I have learnt that generally speaking it leads to more and you're much better off just having friends who are girls who will actually listen to you and look at you as a person

Torah613 08-13-2008 07:23 AM

[QUOTE=Majorthinker;144265]Different question:
What if you're asked to help a member of the opposite gender? The matter at hand is very important, and you would be doing it anonymously, over the internet. You can also cut contact as soon as the matter is resolved. Is it justified then?[/QUOTE]With care etc.- why not?

Meshulam 08-13-2008 07:29 AM

[quote=Majorthinker;144265]Different question:
What if you're asked to help a member of the opposite gender? The matter at hand is very important, and you would be doing it anonymously, over the internet. You can also cut contact as soon as the matter is resolved. Is it justified then?[/quote]

I imagine so. Look, men and women have to go to work together too (once they're adults). These things have to be approached appropriately.

Meshulam 08-13-2008 07:31 AM

[quote=skittels;144269]When it comes 2 these sit every1 makes there own halacha up so i don't get who 2 believe or not.[/quote]

Nobody has contradicted anyone else yet. So I don't know why you decided to say this. Nobody was made up his own halacha (at least, not on this thread).

skittels 08-13-2008 07:44 AM

I am not saying on here i am sayin in life.

Sometimes when you do talk 2 a boy and both of u know its just friends no further what is the problem?

Returning 08-13-2008 08:45 AM

[quote=Majorthinker;144265]Different question:
What if you're asked to help a member of the opposite gender? The matter at hand is very important, and you would be doing it anonymously, over the internet. You can also cut contact as soon as the matter is resolved. Is it justified then?[/quote]

BS"D

I would be careful if the person is around the same age as you are and unmarried. You could get curious as to what he looks like, is like etc and start imagining. However, even if the person knows who you are and you are not really in contact in real life but there is no possibility of attraction, the schar of helping the person far outweighs the minor risk.

Just help for the sake of helping and keep everything between you and the person you are helping and all will be well. When in doubt ask your mashpia, rav or parole officer.

Returning 08-13-2008 08:56 AM

[quote=skittels;144274]I am not saying on here i am sayin in life.

Sometimes when you do talk 2 a boy and both of u know its just friends no further what is the problem?[/quote]

BS"D

You and/or he could be led to improper thoughts which in turn could translate into action. In his case there is also a possibility of thoughts that could lead to "maaseh Onan".

skittels 08-13-2008 09:02 AM

k i will give u a example;
I have a neibour who is a boy and we r rlly close our family is also, what is the problem when i talk 2 him, i just talk 2 him as a close family friends and he does 2 and i do not see the problem!!!!

Meshulam 08-13-2008 09:25 AM

That's like saying "sometimes I eat a cheeseburger. I don't worship idols. I just eat a cheeseburger, while driving to work on Shabbos. What's the problem?" Close "friendly" relationships between men and women are problems in and of themselves. Our sages teach us that men and women are supposed to be separate from one-another.

There is a separate problem of a "platonic" relationship leading to something else (which is a very real problem as well... and judging from your posts here, you should be very afraid of this problem). But the very fact of a "friendship" between a boy and a girl is a problem [I]in and of itself[/I].

Trying to downplay it succeeds only in underscoring how immature you are (this is not meant as an insult... we've all been there. But the fact is what it is.)

Returning 08-13-2008 09:50 AM

[quote=skittels;144281]k i will give u a example;
I have a neibour who is a boy and we r rlly close our family is also, what is the problem when i talk 2 him, i just talk 2 him as a close family friends and he does 2 and i do not see the problem!!!![/quote]

BS"D

You have no idea what he is thinking when he talks to you and what it leads to. If you are all at the Shabbos table talking and other people are around, it is not good either but it is one thing - speaking to him when you 2 are alone is very problematic.

Joey 08-13-2008 12:55 PM

[quote=skittels;144274]I am not saying on here i am sayin in life.

Sometimes when you do talk 2 a boy and both of u know its just friends no further what is the problem?[/quote]

I would say that a married man can help an unmarried girl by being there for her in an event where no one else can do it and preferably have his wife around when he does counseling. I have seen a case where a married Guy literaly turned around the life of his young teenage sister in law by being there for her in difficult times. But like Torah said - it should be done with care. Now if they are both unmarried Id be surprised if anyone would allow that.

existwhere? 08-13-2008 04:41 PM

[quote=Majorthinker;144265]Different question:
What if you're asked to help a member of the opposite gender? The matter at hand is very important, and you would be doing it anonymously, over the internet. You can also cut contact as soon as the matter is resolved. Is it justified then?[/quote]
It feels wrong to me. [warning: lecture will follow]

Here are a few questions that come to mind:
Is this tzanua?
How does this person know me?
Do they really need me to do it, or are they trying to convince me that only I can do it?
Can I really cut contact?
If all the communications I had with this person online were publicized in the newspaper, would I be comfortable? Would I want my parents to read this? Siblings? Why or why not?


I believe that on the internet is where your yirat shamayim really shows itself. If there is something you would want to hide from people, you know inside that it's wrong and comes from the sitra achra. If it does happen, try not to think and talk about it. Fill yourself with kedusha to counteract the tum'ah instead.

I personally, have several safeguards in place. I asked one of my parents to follow what I write and taught them how to use the internet. This has saved me countless times. It's the mature perception of things I would have missed completely, like the real reason someone says something, and the advice on when to respond and when not.

Also, if a boy tries to contact me in any way, and it's not for intellectual purposes like to give me a source I asked for, he goes straight onto my ban list. Boys should not be socializing with girls on the internet, end of story. If they need help, they should go to their Rav or Mashpia or therapist- not some girl on the internet.

Feel free to comment and ask for explanations if necessary.

Majorthinker 08-13-2008 04:42 PM

Mods- I made a mistake. I thought skittels' question would be left alone, as there are many threads on this.
Please place my question in a new thread, so that it doesn't get confusing.
Thanks!

Meshulam 08-13-2008 04:45 PM

[quote=existwhere?;144323]It feels wrong to me. [warning: lecture will follow]

Here are a few questions that come to mind:
Is this tzanua?
How does this person know me?
Do they really need me to do it, or are they trying to convince me that only I can do it?
Can I really cut contact?
If all the communications I had with this person online were publicized in the newspaper, would I be comfortable? Would I want my parents to read this? Siblings? Why or why not?


I believe that on the internet is where your yirat shamayim really shows itself. If there is something you would want to hide from people, you know inside that it's wrong and comes from the sitra achra. If it does happen, try not to think and talk about it. Fill yourself with kedusha to counteract the tum'ah instead.

I personally, have several safeguards in place. I asked one of my parents to follow what I write and taught them how to use the internet. This has saved me countless times. It's the mature perception of things I would have missed completely, like the real reason someone says something, and the advice on when to respond and when not.

Also, if a boy tries to contact me in any way, and it's not for intellectual purposes like to give me a source I asked for, he goes straight onto my ban list. Boys should not be socializing with girls on the internet, end of story. If they need help, they should go to their Rav or Mashpia or therapist- not some girl on the internet.

Feel free to comment and ask for explanations if necessary.[/quote]

Well put.

Majorthinker 08-13-2008 04:50 PM

[quote=existwhere?;144323]It feels wrong to me. [warning: lecture will follow]

Here are a few questions that come to mind:
Is this tzanua?
How does this person know me?
Do they really need me to do it, or are they trying to convince me that only I can do it?
Can I really cut contact?
If all the communications I had with this person online were publicized in the newspaper, would I be comfortable? Would I want my parents to read this? Siblings? Why or why not?[/quote]
[U]'Is this tzanua'[/U]- that was the point of the question.

[U]'How does this person know me?'[/U]- He doesn't. Not at all. That's the point. Anonymous help sometimes is easier to take than real-life help.

[U]'Do they really need me to do it...?'[/U]- Unless they're lying, and the situation isn't as it seems, and my gut is wrong. Doesn't happen often. The 'me' part is coincidental. They need someone to do it. I happened to be in the right place at the right time. (Or, if you like, wrong place at the wrong time.)
[U]
'Can I really cut contact?'[/U]- Sure. I can ban them hereafter. They don't have my email, address, name, telephone number, or anything else....it's completely anonymous. Of course, there is always the [unadvisable] option of deciding not to cut contact. But the option is there.

[U]'If all the communications...'[/U]- I wouldn't be uncomfortable. There's nothing wrong with what I said. It was good advice. But I would feel bad for them. What they told me was confidential.
I wouldn't want my siblings reading it until they're adults. My parents- why not? As long as they understand what prompted me to do it, and that we've cut contact, why should there be an issue? (Although my mother isn't the smartest person to tell. She'd freak out about CT. Obviously, she doesn't know I'm on here. Or that I used to blog. Or anything else...)
[quote]I believe that on the internet is where your yirat shamayim really shows itself. If there is something you would want to hide from people, you know inside that it's wrong and comes from the sitra achra.[/quote]
True. I never thought of it that way. But again, I don't want to hide this; I was asked to keep it confidential.

MahTovChelkeinu 08-13-2008 05:32 PM

I think there are two issues here:

1) The possibility of a platonic friendship leading to something more (which has been discussed with various degrees of tact by others).

2) The question of whether just the platonic relationship itself is a problem, even if you are mature enough to control yourselves (which I would hope you are).

I am doubtful that the admonition "you'll screw up and stop being platonic" is really going to hit home, so I suggest you think about the second point. Existwhere (who has the advantage of being female) laid out several good reasons why you should be cautious. Just remember that whatever you consider casual now will no longer be special and unique when you have a husband to share it with.

Majorthinker 08-13-2008 07:06 PM

[QUOTE=MahTovChelkeinu;144329]I think there are two issues here:

1) The possibility of a platonic friendship leading to something more (which has been discussed with various degrees of tact by others).

2) The question of whether just the platonic relationship itself is a problem, even if you are mature enough to control yourselves (which I would hope you are).

I am doubtful that the admonition "you'll screw up and stop being platonic" is really going to hit home, so I suggest you think about the second point. Existwhere (who has the advantage of being female) laid out several good reasons why you should be cautious. Just remember that whatever you consider casual now will no longer be special and unique when you have a husband to share it with.[/QUOTE]
1) is not quite applicable in this case.
2) I would hope we are both mature enough, at least based on age.
"Screw up" is not something I see myself doing, at least not with my very regulated internet rules. I've heard too many creepy stories not to be cautious. I'm not arguing with existwhere?. I answered her questions. But casual over the internet- with the intention of helping this person anonymously- is not something I think I would do with my spouse in any case. I would hope that we would communicate directly.

MahTovChelkeinu 08-13-2008 08:03 PM

My apologies to MajorThinker - my comments were directed to Skittels (the original poster).

As far as your issue, I don't see much of a problem - you have given the impression in other posts of being some sort of at least semi-professional counselor. Assuming you are an adult with some degree of protection for yourself (which seems to be the case) - I don't see any more issue than with a female social worker taking male clients.

That would go double if you are, in fact, a professional. If you are not, then I would only caution you to seek guidance from professionals in setting your boundaries.

Joey 08-13-2008 08:16 PM

Mr.
 
[QUOTE] That would go double if you are, in fact, a professional. If you are not, then I would only caution you to seek guidance from professionals in setting your boundaries.
[/QUOTE]

I will interject that if you say that professionals should be consulted that they should be Frum.

Majorthinker 08-13-2008 08:54 PM

[QUOTE=MahTovChelkeinu;144337]My apologies to MajorThinker - my comments were directed to Skittels (the original poster).

As far as your issue, I don't see much of a problem - you have given the impression in other posts of being some sort of at least semi-professional counselor. Assuming you are an adult with some degree of protection for yourself (which seems to be the case) - I don't see any more issue than with a female social worker taking male clients.

That would go double if you are, in fact, a professional. If you are not, then I would only caution you to seek guidance from professionals in setting your boundaries.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification, as well as the vote of confidence. I usually play the role of counselor unofficially, though it's a role that I frequently play. One day, though, I'll get a degree in it, IY"H...
Re the advice to ask [frum?] professional counselors for guidance in setting boundaries: It's probably a good idea. Now the issue is only finding someone to talk to about it, and making time to do so. :)

Joey 08-13-2008 10:56 PM

[QUOTE]
[frum?]
[/QUOTE]
Yes Frum, perhaps even a Rov. The Torah has close to endless giudelines about how sexes can or cannot interact. Someone representing the Torah needs to be consulted. I would even say preferably a Rabbi.


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