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-   -   I Await Mashiach Every Day (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=3391)

stamayid 11-04-2003 05:21 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jude [/i]
[B]Stam: how do you anticipate Moshiach's coming every day? sounds like you think it's gonna take eons [/B][/QUOTE]

Lo zochu - be'itoh.

Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day. Every day I anticipate his arrival, whenever it will be (bb"a).

Jude 11-04-2003 05:33 PM

stam: do you think Moshiach will come in your lifetime?

zaque36 11-04-2003 05:35 PM

<<<<<<Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day. Every day I anticipate his arrival, whenever it will be (bb"a).>>>>

isnt there something wrong with that?

rebayzl 11-04-2003 07:53 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stamayid [/i]
[B]

Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day. [/B][/QUOTE]
Why can't he come every day?

Asher S 11-04-2003 10:03 PM

(In connection to the earlier posts on this thread.) Did any of you ever hear a sicha relating to the idea that there will not be any more chevlei moshiach?!

Torah613 11-04-2003 10:09 PM

Maybe you mean 15 Shvat 5739 where he brings the Mitteler Rebbe in Sharei Tshuva p 5b.

Asher S 11-04-2003 10:14 PM

Stam. You brought up a very thoughtful way of understanding the ani ma'min. The Rebbe adressed it many times, as can easily be seen in the collection in the sefer sha'arei geula. If I recall correctly, the Rebbe also brings down the Rambam in Hilchos Melech Hamoshiach, more commonly known as hilchos milochim, that the mitzva is, in addition to believing in the general idea of moshiach, that will come at some point in time, one has to be mitzapeh to his coming and whoever dosen't do both, continues the Rambam is a kofer . . . I just remembered also, that the Rebbe bring down that we ask for Moshiach and the Beis Hamikdosh 3 times daily in Shemoneh Esreh, on Shabbos 4, which in context of the other berachos (for example refuah shleima) is for now, not whenever Hashem will want.
In tht sefer, can be found also a collection regarding b'etah, and zacho. "ayin sham".

Asher S 11-04-2003 10:16 PM

Torah613: Thanks for the reference. Could you relate the idea that is expressed there?

RebMoshe 11-05-2003 05:21 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rebayzl [/i]
[B]
Why can't he come every day? [/B][/QUOTE]

I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos.

hishtatchus 11-05-2003 05:59 AM

I believe that the answer given to that is something like, "Eliyahu Hanavi will answer all of our questions. So he should come Erev Shabbos, and he'll just have one more question to answer..."

stamayid 11-05-2003 10:11 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hishtatchus [/i]
[B]I believe that the answer given to that is something like, "Eliyahu Hanavi will answer all of our questions. So he should come Erev Shabbos, and he'll just have one more question to answer..." [/B][/QUOTE]

Great attitude. I could say, nu, why can't a woman be Moshiach? When she comes she will answer all your questions. Or even better, why can't Yoshke be Moshiach? Don't bother me with kashyas. When he comes he will answer all of your questions.

Our religion doesn't work that way.

See Eiruvin 43b

stamayid 11-05-2003 10:12 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jude [/i]
[B]stam: do you think Moshiach will come in your lifetime? [/B][/QUOTE]

How should I know? I can only hope and wait.

stamayid 11-05-2003 10:19 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rebayzl [/i]
[B]Why can't he come every day? [/B][/QUOTE]

According to R' Yehoshua, the Geuloh will be in Nissan. According to R' Eliezer it will be in Tishrei. That means that according to R' Yehoshua, Moshiach will come in Nissan and not the other 11 months of the year. And according to R' Eliezer only in Tishrei and not in the other eleven months of the year.

There are other similar statements in Chazal, not least of which is that Eliyohu will not come on erev Shabbos and erev Yom Tov.

See the second paragraph in [url="http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/henkin.pdf"]this letter[/url] where R' Yehuda Henkin says pretty much the same thing. I know, he's a bit weird on certain issues. But I think he has a good point here, which he makes in a much stronger way in the ma'amar he refers to.

(Addition: I reread the letter and he says it in the name of his grandfather, R' Yosef Eliyohu Henkin)

Gevurah 11-05-2003 10:20 AM

[QUOTE]I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos.[/QUOTE] \

Chill out Stam...it isn't in front of me or where I have a copy but the Chasam Sofer answers ina TEshuvah how Moshiach can come on Shabbas....

Torah613 11-05-2003 10:27 AM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RebMoshe [/i]
[B]

I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos. [/B][/QUOTE]See:
[URL=http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=C:\HOME\ocr_files\main\sihot\23\B0000394.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=40]http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=C:\HOME\ocr_files\main\sihot\23\B0000394.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=40[/URL]

[URL=http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=C:\HOME\ocr_files\main\egrot\02\B0233.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=30]http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=C:\HOME\ocr_files\main\egrot\02\B0233.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=30[/URL]

stamayid 11-05-2003 10:36 AM

Torah613,

That sounds like what I am saying, no?

Jude 11-05-2003 10:51 AM

Stam: I didn't ask whether you know (did you think I thought you had inside information?). I asked whether you thought Moshiach would come in your lifetime, whether you anticipate this happening, whether you expect it to happen.

and yes, you could say why can't a woman be Moshiach and why can't Yoshke be Moshiach, but that would be idiotic since halacha says they can't.

Tell me, do you (or those who) recite the Ani Maamins daily, skip saying it on erev Shabbos? I can tell you that we recited it in school on erev Shabbos. Why say it on erev Shabbos and erev YomTov if we are not mechake lo to show up that day?

Can someone choose to recite the Ani Maamins only in Nissan/Tishrei (someone who includes Ani Maamins in his nusach ha'tefilla), since Moshiach won't be showing up any other time?

And what does achake lo b'chol yom sh'yavo mean if, according to the quotes you posted, he won't be showing up on MOST days of the year?

stamayid 11-05-2003 11:22 AM

[quote]I didn't ask whether you know (did you think I thought you had inside information?). I asked whether you thought Moshiach would come in your lifetime, whether you anticipate this happening, whether you expect it to happen.[/quote]

These are different things. I cannot think that Moshiach will come in my lifetime or expect it if I don't know whether or not he will. I can hope. I can prepare for the possibility. I can anxiously wait.

[quote]Tell me, do you (or those who) recite the Ani Maamins daily, skip saying it on erev Shabbos?[/quote]

Exactly my point. Every day I [b]believe[/b] that Moshiach will come.

Besides which, I don't say the Ani Maamins. I don't know who wrote them but they were poorly written. There are big differences between the Ani Maamins and what Rambam's actual 13 Ikkorim.

[quote]And what does achake lo b'chol yom sh'yavo mean if, according to the quotes you posted, he won't be showing up on MOST days of the year?[/quote]

Every you day you wait for the time that Moshiach will come. I don't have a good moshol for this handy but I'm sure someone can come up with a good story that demonstrates this.

Consider a kalloh. Every day she looks forward to her wedding, thinks about it, plans for it, envisions it. She knows that it won't happen on any given day but she still waits for it anxiously.

Yankel Nosson 11-05-2003 12:05 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stamayid [/i]
[B]Consider a kalloh. Every day she looks forward to her wedding, thinks about it, plans for it, envisions it. She knows that it won't happen on any given day but she still waits for it anxiously. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's exactly the sort of attitude the Rebbeim labored to overcome.


[quote]
..."the battle of the House of David," whose task is to strengthen our people's faith in the Messianic Redemption and to ease its birthpangs.

There are two levels of evil found in the time of "the footsteps of Mashiach." One category comprises "the enemies of G-d," the veteran apikorsim and maskilim....

The other category -- of those who "have abused ... the footsteps of Your Mashiach" -- comprises all kinds of people; in fact, it even includes quite reputable Torah scholars, [b]whose faith in the imminent Redemption is nevertheless weak. They may well rationalize their beliefs with explanations ostensibly based on the fear of heaven. The final word, however, is that their faith in Mashiach's coming is weak.[/b]

[i]www.Yiddishkeit.org/Default.asp?ItemCode=377[/i]
[/quote]

stamayid 11-05-2003 12:34 PM

Yesterday, did you [b]know[/b] that Moshiach would come on that day? Did you [b]think[/b] that he would? Did you [b]expect[/b] that he would? Or did you [b]hope[/b] that he would?

rebayzl 11-05-2003 12:43 PM

Stam, dont you know that he came already (and left?)

Jude 11-05-2003 12:49 PM

the kalla mashal is inadequate since she knows the date of her wedding

to answer the questions in your most recent post - I heard a speaker describe the thought processes of the wife of an American hostage being held in Lebanon, as she described it. She said that at the end of every day of his captivity she was so disappointed that he hadn't been released that day. She had anticipated that it would happen, but it hadn't. The speaker used this gentile's expectation of her husband's imminent release as a mashal for how WE are supposed to anticipate Moshiach's coming.

It's not that we KNOW that Moshiach is coming today, but we (should) think that not only he might come, but he [I]will[/I] come today, and if, by the time we go to sleep he hasn't come, we should be truly disappointed, as disappointed as you would be if you were counting on company showing up and you prepared for them and were looking out the window for them, and they surprisingly, did not show up.

Anything less than this, anything less than the expectation level of the hostage's wife, shows - to some degree or another - that:

a) we don't really care that he didn't show up today, after all - there's always tomorrow so big deal .. (and the Rebbe described this attitude and said that alas, his own Chasidim had it - 28 Nisan 5751, al achas kama v'kama a non-Chasid)

b) we don't believe he will ever come

rebayzl 11-05-2003 01:02 PM

Dissapointment is a different issue, it has to do with "Mechake LeViato".

Gevurah 11-05-2003 01:04 PM

what about the case where the kalla is not yet met her shidduch... she longs for her chuppah nonetheless...

Jude 11-05-2003 01:17 PM

the definition of disappointment is the feeling you have when expectations or wishes are not met

if a person does not feel disappointed at day's end when Moshiach has not come, it's because he didn't expect him to come, nor did he truly wish that he came that day

a boy or girl (kalla?!) who hasn't yet met the person they become engaged to and marry, and who wants to marry - yes, that's a good mashal

and if they blithely go their merry way, working, learning, dating, whatever ... and don't rue the day (and years) when they should have been married, then it shows a great ambivalence on their part about marriage


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