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rightboy 12-25-2001 12:04 AM

Going to College
What was the Rebbe's opinion on going to college, and why do we see such negative feelings towards going to college?

Isnt it a normal thing for a person to do? How else are you supposed to put food on the table? Was the rebbe reallyagainst going to college?

Please supply sources. Thanks

Tzemach 12-25-2001 12:06 AM

Letters from the Rebbe about going to College
Below are some letters of the Rebbe (written originally in English) that discuss this subject, I hope you find this useful.

[b]From a letter of 1 Adar 5722[/b]

I am in receipt of your letter in which you ask my opinion about the advisability for graduates of a Yeshivah to continue their sacred studies in conjunction with college attendance. By way of preface, let me state at once that my views on the subject apply not only to students of Yeshivos, but to all Jewish youth, since all are children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the souls of all were present at Sinai and received the Torah and Mitzvos. This is, indeed, the basis of my view that will be outlined below, after some introductory observations.

Jews have always been a "minority among the nations", even in the best of times. At the same time "their laws differ from those of any other people", and they differ not only in regard to special occasions, or special aspects of life, such as Shabbos, or Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, but they differ in their way of life and in every aspect of the daily life. For the Jew, the Torah and Mitzvoth are the guide of daily life and the source of life and true happiness, and this is the simple meaning of "Toras Chaim" - Law of life, and the definition of the Mitzvoth as the essence of Jewish life, "whereby Jews live".

It is clear that being in the minority, Jews must have special reinforcement from childhood on, in order to be able to hold their own in the face of overwhelming odds.

If it was difficult enough to live as a Jew in countries where Jews were persecuted, confined to Ghettos, etc., there was one redeeming factor at least, namely that under those circumstances Jewish adherence and loyalty to the Torah and Mitzvoth was not put to the test. An individual Jew could severs his ties with his people, but that involved a sudden and complete break; it was therefore rare and extreme. But in the free countries, and under present economic and social conditions, there are no outside barriers separating Jew from gentile; the road to assimilation is wide open, and the danger is all the greater since the process is a gradual one. No sudden break with tradition is entailed, but gradual deviation, step after small step, leads in that direction. There is a well-known parable for this, about the boy who strayed from the road and later found himself in the midst of the woods. He got there by making a small false step off the road, which led to another, and yet another.

The conditions and environment in a country such as this call, therefore, for an even greater spiritual reinforcement of the Jewish boy and girl than ever before and elsewhere. This reinforcement must be of such strength and duration that the Jewish child. will always be conscious of the fact that no matter what the environment is, he is the bearer of the sacred tradition of the Divine Torah and Mitzvoth and belongs to a people that is holy and different. For this, it is essential that right from the earliest childhood to adolescence the Jewish child should receive the fullest possible Jewish education, throughout his formative years.

Hence, when a Jewish boy completes his compulsory education, it is an absolute must that for a couple of years, at least, he should dedicate himself to the exclusive study of the Torah and sacred subjects, in a most conducive atmosphere of a Yeshiva, without distraction of secular studies, all the more so as the teen-age are crucial and formative and of lasting effect, in the crystallization of the character.

This would have been my opinion even if the college entailed more that the distraction of secular studies. Actually there is much more involved. Theoretically a college and its faculty should not try to impose any particular views, much less a way of life, on the students. Actually however, the student cannot help being impressed, on the conscious and subconscious level, by the views, outlook and way of life of his professors. These, as well

as the whole atmosphere of a college, are unfortunately, not comparable with the Jewish way of life, and frequently if not always quite contradictory to it. This is so even in colleges which are theological, or having so-called religious studies. Needless to say, the whole atmosphere of college is in violent conflict " with the Shulchan Aruch way of life, whereby the Jew is totally committed - in every detail and aspect of his personal daily life - to the Torah and Mitzvoth and the service of G-d, as is written "You shall know Him in all your ways", to which a whole chapter in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim (Ch.231) is devoted: note there.

In other words, the Jewish boy (or girl) entering college, yet desiring to retain the Jewish way of life in accordance with the Torah, finds himself tossed about in the raging waves of conflict between two contradictory worlds. fie is at a further disadvantage in finding himself in the minority camp, since those sharing his views and convictions are few of the college campus, while the forces pulling in the opposite direction are overwhelming; forces he must confront at every turn - among the student body, faculty members, text books, newspapers and periodicals. It is very doubtful whether even an adult and mature person who is subjected to such "shock treatment" day after day, would not be shaken; how much more so a teenager.

Needless to say, I am aware of the argument that many Yeshivah boys attending college, or even college graduates, remain loyal to the Torah and Mitzvoth. The answer in simple. The number of such students and graduates who have not been seriously affected is relatively small indeed, much smaller than imagined. They are so exceptional that he wonder of it attracts attention, since those that go astray under college influence are taken for granted, while the one that still puts on Tefillin calls forth amazement. One may use the analogy of the shoe-shine boy who became a millionaire and everyone talks about him. it is not because he was a shoe-shine boy that he attained success, and no one will suggest that in order to become a millionaire one should start in the shoe-shine business. The greater the exception and sensation, the greater is the proof of the rule.

Some people ask, if there is really such a conflict between attending college and remaining an observant Jew. I can speak from experience and personal knowledge, having attended various colleges and seen the painful inner upheavals of Jewish students, and having for many years been the confidant of Jewish students who are otherwise reluctant or ashamed to open their hearts, I can therefore state with the fullest measure of conviction and responsibility that he who sends his child to college during the formative years subjects him to shock and profound conflicts and trials and invites quite unforeseen consequences . . .

To put the matter in bolder relief, by way of illustration. Take the general attitude to polio, G-d forbid, and the precaution taken against it. Fortunately, the incidence of polio is not widespread, and where it strikes, it cripples only a part of the physical body; yet though the odds are farfetched it would be reckless not to take the necessary precaution. Unfortunately, the victims of college education are numerous indeed and most widespread, by far in the majority, and the harm is even more far-reaching.

Another point which is often the subject of misconception - the importance attached to a college degree from the economic point of view. Statistics show that the majority of college graduates eventually establish themselves in occupations and business not directly connected with their courses of study in college. The moral is obvious.

Tzemach 12-25-2001 12:07 AM

[b]From a letter of 28 Cheshvan 5715[/b]

It is surely unnecessary to explain to you at length that every Jew and Jewess, young and old, has a purpose and task to accomplish in his or her life. The task, broadly speaking, is to illuminate the world with 'Ner Mitzvah v'Torah Or' in every-day life. After so many Jews lost their lives in recent years, among them the best and choicest of our people, the responsibility of those whom G-d in His mercy has spared is increased many-fold. It is therefore more obvious than ever that no Jew has a right to give of his time, and even mo a so of his heart and mind, to matters which not only do not help t are very likely to hinder in the fulfillment of his sacred task and purpose. One of these matters would be to spend several years in college, and especially in a college environment. While it is true that in recent years, in certain colleges, especially in New York, there are groups of orthodox Jewish students, young men and women - and may G-d help them to come out of it unharmed, at any rate not worse than they were when they entered college - we have a rule not to rely on miracles. It is certain, however, that college will not help fulfill the true and inner desire of the Jew to carry out his abovementioned task and purpose in life, so that even at best it would be an irretrievable loss of time and energy.

It is therefore my sincere hope that you will discard the idea, and do so not only because - as you told your father that you wish to be guided by me but also because you will recognize that the idea does not represent your own true thinking and desire. I hope, moreover, that you will use your good influence in this direction with your friends who might entertain a similar idea in the mistaken belief that it might be a good idea.

Tzemach 12-25-2001 12:08 AM

[b]From a Letter of the Rebbe, reprinted in "Der Rebbe's Kinder" page 455:[/b]

It is not my custom to engage in polemics, least of all in the columns of the press. However, in view of the importance of the issue and the widespread attention which it has received, I consider it in the public interest to clarify my position in regard to certain points raised by your correspondent.

(1) 1 have not made what our correspondent calls "scientific surveys" relating to college education and its effects on Jewish students, However, I have had sufficient contact, over many years, with Jewish undergraduates and graduates of a great many colleges and universities in the United States and Canada, as well as abroad, to speak from personal knowledge of the problem.

There is no need for statistics on this subject. The facts speak for themselves. Let anyone visit several colleges or universities (outside of New York City) and he can easily find out for himself how many colleges have a kosher canteen on the campus, or even nearby, and how many students strictly observe kashrus in their three meals a day, or two meals, or one. Of course, theoretically speaking, it may be possible for a Jewish student to go through the four years of his academic life without a hot meal. Theoretically also, it may be possible for a student, after a day's work, to go out to do his own shopping and cooking. But we are not dealing with theories. The undeniable fact is that a negligible proportion, if any, of Jewish students attending colleges and universities go through their academic training without making concessions in basic matters of Yiddishkeit in their daily life.

I mentioned only the matter of kashrus, but the same is true of Tefilo b'Tzibbur, even on Shabbos and Yom Tov, and other areas of the religious life. It is painful to go into detail, and I am most reluctant to do so, since it is not in keeping with the Torah spirit, much less with the Hasidic approach, to speak ill of anybody. However, we are dealing with a situation where the Torah dictates that it is a time to speak. I shall therefore cite one actual illustration:

Some years ago I was asked to intervene in behalf of several Jewish students whose examinations had been scheduled to take place on Shabbos. The difficulty stemmed from the fact that the university authorities claimed that they had never before been confronted with such a demand by Jewish students. Such a situation is surely more eloquent than any "scientific survey."

(2) In his defense of college education, your correspondent uses the "economic" argument. He maintains that no one should be denied the opportunity of a better or easier Parnosso that a college degree offers, Now, aside from the fact that this argument can easily be refuted from the Torah viewpoint, by simply reducing it to its logical consequence which would subordinate the spirit to the flesh, I submit (from personal knowledge of many cases) that the economic factor is of greater significance to the parents, especially to the mother, rather than to the would-be student. The motivation for college education is generally much more "idealistic," at any rate in the case of many Yeshiva boys. But this only aggravates the problem, for it indicates that a Yeshiva boy, having been successful in his Talmudic studies, and having earned the diploma of not only "Yore, yore" but also "Yodin, yodin," still feels that he is not complete without a secular college degree! The destructive implications of such an attitude are not less serious than the environmental influences of the college itself. It is indeed most unfortunate that Rabbis and Roshe-Yeshiva, generally speaking, do not sufficiently imbue the talmidim and youths who are entrusted to their influence with that age-old idea which every Jewish mother used to impart to her baby in the cot as she was rocking him to sleep with the lullaby "Torah is di beste s'chorah."

(3) I am not unaware that there are congregations which prefer a Rabbi with a college degree, and Baale-battim who consider that a Rabbi is not yet fully qualified as a spiritual leader by merely passing a Yeshiva Smicha, until and unless he also has the stamp of approval of the gentile world in the form of a college diploma.

This is an unfortunate symptom of certain Jewish circles which are suffering from an acute form of a chronic inferiority complex. This malady is expressed in a variety of symptoms, all of which are characterized by the urge to curry the favor and approval of the gentile neighbors. With true consistency, such Baale-battim evaluate a candidate for their pulpit also by his qualifications as an entertainer, by the store of jokes at his disposal, by his ability to review the latest best-seller immediately following Kerias haTorah as a preparation, no doubt, for Musaf; and if he is to have real influence on the children and youths, he must be able to answer questions as to baseball stars; movie stars, etc. etc. Now, granting that there are congregations and Baale-battim with such a tendency, let us ask ourselves, Should a tendency which degrades the Torah, the Synagogue and the Rabbi be catered to and fostered by a right-thinking Yeshiva boy who aspires to become a true Jewish spiritual leader?!

(4) Your correspondent recommends that American orthodoxy adopt the system which Rabbi Shimshon Refoel Hirsch (Zal) introduced in Germany several generations ago. I cannot go along with this recommendation. The system had its place in Germany more than a century ago, but it would be quite out of place in American orthodoxy -- for the following reason, RSRH designed his system with a view to saving a generation who were already in the universities and who were already absorbing the secular culture. He attempted to provide for them the dimension of the Torah, so that they would not be completely lost to our fold. Our American orthodoxy is quite different, and more fortunate, thank G-d. The situation is, in fact, reversed. For the issue of college education under discussion is not concerned with those who are already in the colleges, but with the question Should Yeshiva bochurim be encouraged to attend college? Those advocating college education for Yeshiva bochurim are moving in the opposite direction to that of the Hirschian approach. Were Rabbi Shimshon R. Hirsch with us here today, he would consider it ludicrous (to say the least) to see his name used as a means to drag Jewish boys away from the Torah and Torah atmosphere of the Yeshiva into an atmosphere and education which is more often than not in violent conflict with the Torah.

(5) One of the serious dangers that are inherent in college education has to do with its influence on the thought process of the college student. The college student is trained to think in secular terms and categories. In all courses (except theology) G-d is banished from the classroom. This often leads to the tendency of leaving G-d out of the Torah study as well. When, and if, the college student returns to the Gemoro, he is likely to approach it with the same mental process. He may still admire the wisdom of the Torah, and may still derive pleasure from its study, but he will not be able to recapture the sense of awe and holiness with which he had once approached G-d's Torah. Hence if he had picked up some apparent discrepancies between secular science and the Torah, he is inclined to solve the difficulty by simply taking the words of the Torah or of ChaZaL out of their meaning in order to harmonize them with the college text-books, or even those used in High Schools or public schools. Unfortunately, this tendency has made inroads even among Talmidei Kolelim, who sit and study Torah at great personal "sacrifice," yet whose Hashkofo had been contaminated by the secular Hashkofo of the college.

One is reminded of the comment of Rabbenu Yona Ha-Chosid on the maamar ChaZaL "Why was the Land destroyed? Because they did not precede their learning of the Torah with the blessing ('Who has chosen us from among all the nations and has given us His Torah')". Rabbenu Yona observes that although they engaged in the Torah constantly, it was of no avail because they did not the Torah with the full recognition that it was G- 17' Torah, and that we Jews chosen people and are different. (See Rabbenu Yonah on Nedorim 81a, and at greater length in the BaCh on 7'ur Orach Chayim sec. 47).

(6) Incidentally, if any proof is needed as to how beclouded one may become in one's thinking when one is carried away by one's own subjective partiality to college education, suffice it to quote your correspondent: "Of necessity, time spent on secular study takes away time from Torah learning. The same would apply to time spent on studying Chassidus." To equate secular study with the study of Chassidus! What a sad commentary it is on college education, and what it does to a Yeshiva boy. (I presume your correspondent is, or was, a Yeshiva boy.) This clearly bears out the point I made earlier regarding the dangerous effect on the thought process of Yeshiva boys who expose themselves to the college atmosphere and the distortion of values that it can cause.

Lubamessimaniac 12-25-2001 12:09 AM

Don't forget this famous quote of the Rebbe. Someone asked him, "You went to the Sorbonne, why can't I go to college?" There are various versions of the Rebbe's answer, but this is the one I've heard the most: "If I jumped off the Eiffel Tower and lived, does that mean anyone could do it?"

If anyone knows the source of this one, plizz let me know!

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:10 AM

I personally am in University, and it must be one of the worst moves I've ever made. It's a long story how I ended up there, but do me a favor, don't even make it an option for yourself. It really is not for a frum boy. There is literally no need for me to elaborate, because it's all above in the Rebbes letters. What he writes not only applies now, but the forces of evil around are so much more.

chochma 12-25-2001 12:11 AM

I heard somewhere that the Rebbe said that if you do go to college you should be married... I plan on going to college for a number of reasons and my mashpia, menahel etc agree that it would be wise. anyway, Im just wondering if the Rebbe was also talking about frum schools where someone could get a buisness degree, computer stuff etc.

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:11 AM

Interesting. Some of the users here may remember a post on the Ohel Stories section I posted a while ago which I explained that I got an answer from the Rebbe about all this..and in the letter it did mention getting married...and I can see clearly why the Rebbe held this way, and how right he was..

Of course it applies to all these schools. They are all based on the same basis and run in the same sort of way. This is from my experience anyway.

I'm surprised that your Mashpia etc agrees to you going. I'm sure they are correct, but I'd be interested in their reasoning.

I actually sat down with someone I know and asked him what Yeshiva he's going to etc and what his long term plans are. He said that he'll go to Yeshiva, and maybe University. He's not ruled out the possibility of University. I started telling him not to (yes I know..even thought I am there)..and he started saying that the Rebbe told the large majority of people NOT to go, but there were exceptions. He's correct about this, and I've heard this myself. But never have I heard actual stories and examples. Can anyone shed any light on this? When DID the Rebbe "allow" it?

Jude 12-25-2001 12:12 AM

I've read/heard about those who became baalei teshuva while in college, who in some cases wanted to drop out and catch up in yeshiva. In some of those cases, the Rebbe urged them to finish college, because their shlichus was in their chosen field. I don't think I've ever heard of someone who grew up frum whom the Rebbe called in and said: I want you to go to college.

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:13 AM

jude - thanks for that explanation. I thought that was the case.

Guess that puts me in the black spot. I come under the second category....which is why I feel so bad each time I write to the Rebbe....

chochma - just out of interest. Why are you being advised to go? Or at least being given the "green light"??

Fubar 12-25-2001 12:14 AM

just a small insite,

my family is on shlichus on a college campus, and unfortunatly we've seen many kidz who come from frum homes and dont even come to college intending to spread their wings so far, go way off. and its realy sad. its not something u can get away from. the stuff on a college campus would blow most peoples minds!!! deffinatly not an atmesphere ud wanna be in 24/7 itd be different if ur goin to like a college were u come in for the classes and leave afterwards, but even then deffinatly choose a college like YU or Stern, cuz its not worth the tempting youself with the stuff they have out there.

even if ud ask my lil sister shelltell u the same thing, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out of course there are some special situations, and before making such a dissision which would impact you life so much, consult someone you feel comfterable with and someone you trust and respect their opinion.

Jac 12-25-2001 12:15 AM

But why did the Rebbe go to college?

Btw, jude, blackhorse: sorry, but i actually know of cases where the rebbe allowed people that were frum (and lubavitch) from birth go to college. I just dunno which stories are public and which aren't, so sorry, but I can't specify names. Of course, there are many many more stories where the rebbe advised ppl. NOT to go ;). It definitely is the exception to go.

Re Jewish colleges like YU or Stern: sorry, but there's (at least) one letter of the rebbe which explains that the reason not to go to college is [not just because of the atmosphere, etc.] b/c as lubavitcher chassidim it is our DUTY to spread yiddishkeit--and we ARE WASTING PRECIOUS TIME BY SITTING IN COLLEGE! Powerful, huh? So it's not only the "sur meira" it's also the "asei tov." (Conversely, the rebbe strongly encourages girls AND boys to spend at least one solid year after high school just learning--i.e. sem or continuation of boys' yeshiva)

Also, even in these "safe" colleges, u never really know how safe u are. For example, I personally know of a case where an instructor (a frum man) made a derogatory remark about Kollel--and on the spot, dozens of impressionable girls decided that THEIR husbands wouldn't be kollel guys! And that's just a 'minor' incident. At this impressionable stage, it is so impt. to be very careful where u spend ur time. These are the "crucial years" of developing--and just as children dont' walk well in their later years if they werent' properly cared for in their "crucial years" of walking, so too here! (As is a proven case that those children evacuated during WWII, in England, who missed out on the proper atmosphere in those crucial years suffered later on--not walking as well as reg. children, etc.) Keep that in mind!

Re rightboy: the rebbe gives many explanations about how it isn't a good enough reason to go to college for parnasa. In short, look, it's all min hashamayim, how much $$ you're going to make or how much you won't make. Furthermore, statistics show that most people don't even end up working in the career of the subject that they'd majored in in college! This is really insufficient, but I wish i knew the exact books these are in, I only have some handouts of letters of the REbbe. :) I'll try to find out some more sources, though.

I totally understand ur point, though. I've just been lucky enough to get answers, bh;).

P.s. thanks, Tzemach, for ur enlightening letters from the rebbe.

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:18 AM

I'd be interested if you could get some sources Jac.

fubar - Very interesting point. Glad at least someone knows what I'm going on about The problem is, it's becoming more and more popular WITHIN Lubavitch circles to go to College etc... That's my impression anyway. Not a major outbreak, but more then there used to be...

Jude 12-25-2001 12:18 AM

Jac, I also know of people who got the green light from the Rebbe to go to college. They ASKED the Rebbe whether they could go. That's DIFFERENT than the Rebbe telling someone to go who didn't ask. I don't think that exists - the Rebbe telling someone, who didn't ask to go, to go.

So you may ask, why, if the Rebbe held college was wrong for so many reasons, did he grant permission to some to go? It must have to do with those few people's individual shlichus and life circumstances.

And I imagine that any Chassid who asked the Rebbe permission to go to college, thought about it extensively, knowing the Rebbe's opposition, and felt they had a compelling reason that made them a yotzei min ha'klal.

The fact that Lubavitcher girls and boys are going off to college these days in droves, is a very negative sign and a deterioration of standards. How many of them bothered to either ask the Rebbe through the Igros Kodesh and got a direct yes, or consulted with a mashpia and truly asked their opinion and were advised to go.

You know, there's a difference between consulting the Rebbe or a mashpia and INFORMING them, this is what I'm doing, give me your blessings.

The klal has always been, the Rebbe answers in kind, i.e. it often depends on how a question is asked, or even on whether it's asked, etc.

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:20 AM

"The fact that Lubavitcher girls and boys are going off to college these days in droves" - Droves? Is it that bad?!

Jude 12-25-2001 12:21 AM

I have no numbers at all. The fact that I've heard about it as a phenomenon, means the numbers are significant enough to note, whatever the numbers actually are.

Fubar 12-25-2001 12:21 AM

the rebbe did tell specific people to go to college but that was ment for those specific people, he didnt make it a klal for all of lubavich

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:22 AM

Yes Jude already said that, but as he said it would have been in a way of the person asking the Rebbe for advice. Not that the rebbe went to someone and told them to go.

Tzemach 12-25-2001 12:24 AM

Why did the Rebbe go to college?
<<But why did the Rebbe go to college?>>

In 1958 the Rebbe told someone in Yechidus that he should to to a Yeshivah where they only learn Limmudei Kodesh, so he asked the Rebbe, "So why did you to to university?..."

The Rebbe replied: "After you know the entire Shas, Bavli and Yerushalmi, with all the Meforshim, Rishonim and Acharonim by heart you'll also be permitted to go..." (or according to another version: "Then there is something to think about")

About people like the Rebbe, the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya (end of ch. "This is the reason why the Rambam and the Ramban have engaged in such studies" [=in order to use it out in Avodas Hashem]

Tzemach 12-25-2001 12:24 AM

[list][*]I was shocked to find out that you have considered going to college college. I hope and trust that you will abandon this idea completely, and you will calm me down with this good news... (from a letter of Friday 13 Elul 5710)
[*]A professor of Yeshivah University asked the Rebbe what he thinks about college, the Rebbe replied: [b]"It is the Churban of Am Yisroel"[/b]
[*]There will come a time when the professors themselves will be against college, even though this will cut them off from their parnossoh... They will be opposed to college, because of the education that colleges give. (Yechidus 5729)
[*]From what I've seen, and also from what I've heard from others, [u]it is clear[/u] that that it is not good for him [u]at all[/u]. [And it is (at least a little) [u]surprising[/u] that he has even considered it in the first place], and because of many reasons, (not just because of frumkeit). (from a undated answer from the Rebbe)
[*]After attempting to persuade a Bochur not to go to college, the Bochur told the Rebbe that he already promised his father that he will go, the Rebbe retorted: [b]"But you have already sworn to your Father in Heaven at Mt. Sinai!"[/b][/list]

Jac 12-25-2001 12:26 AM

Thanks a lot, Tzemach. I guess I knew those stories and studied that chapter of tanya, but still chose to focus on the fact that it is rather surprising for the rebbe to do exactly opposite of what he advises.

Btw, I think it is different for boys and girls. Boys (at least in the US) generally have learning/shlichus/semicha until they're married. Girls can easily have a few years between seminary and marriage. I am wondering: lately, (even the best) girls are doing correspondence courses or attending schools like Sarah Shneirer (a seminary really, not a college, which is an accredited school in the area of education). Is there a/thing wrong with things like that, do you all think?

Jude 12-25-2001 12:28 AM

In answer to whether it's good/bad for girls to get degrees:

Since when do we need degrees for shlichus? I suspect most of these girls are planning on "careers," and it aint to support their husbands for years of learning in Lakewood ...

Would they feel comfortable informing the Rebbe that they're studying for a degree instead of teaching?

blackhorse 12-25-2001 12:29 AM

I'm sure some did ask, but from the sound of it, a lot of girls are doing it. I'm sure not all of them asked, and if they did, not all of them got the go ahead....

Jac 12-25-2001 12:30 AM

"Since when do we need degrees for shlichus? I suspect most of these girls are planning on "careers," and it aint to support their husbands for years of learning in Lakewood ..."

Since always. I dunno where you're living, but any shlucha nowadays that starts a school, kindergarten, etc. either needs to hire someone who is fully qualified (with degrees, etc.)--unless she herself is qualified! None of the disadvantages of going to college applies in these cases (correspondence and seminary types), so that is why there is a question.

P.s. and if some girls are doing it so that they make double the amount while doing the exact same job, what's wrong with that?

ChachChach 12-30-2001 07:06 PM

what about if you want your degree for shlichus? shlichus doesnt just mean to go to some hole in the ground and start a community-shlichus is also going to boropark or somewhere where there already is a jewish presense, and spreading the message of mashiach and chassidus and whatnot. you can do this by teaching, but you can also do this through a career. (please do [i] not [/i] go around limiting women to only teaching careers.... :mad: )

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