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-   -   Three steps back before Shmonei Esrei (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=11834)

FlyingAxe 02-14-2011 09:48 PM

Three steps back before Shmonei Esrei
 
My father-in-law asked the following question: is there any significance, according to Chassidus, in taking the three steps back before the S"E? The important bit, it seems, is taking three steps forward before S"E (approaching the King) and three steps back at the end of S"E (backing away from the King).

So, the reason for the three steps back before S"E is so that one davens S"E at the same place he was davening the rest, but when one is standing davening with his back against the wall, is there any reason for him to walk forward, [B]so that[/B] he can take three steps back? Or he can just take three steps forward and start davening? (Also, if one gets up to daven at the bima... does one have to approach the bima, then take three steps back, and then forward, or can he just take three steps forward towards the bima?)

Torah613 02-14-2011 11:30 PM

I would think the 3 steps forward is enough.

Paper 10-06-2011 12:52 AM

[QUOTE](Also, if one gets up to daven at the bima... does one have to approach the bima, then take three steps back, and then forward, or can he just take three steps forward towards the bima?)[/QUOTE]

According to the Yesh Oimrim in 123 4 in the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch, three steps forward are required after tfila blachash for a seperate reason. So if the chazzan is required to take three steps forward before his repitition, then it would have to be repeated separately.

What do you mean by "according to Chasiddus,"?

Torah613 10-06-2011 07:38 AM

I see no reason why the 3 steps the Chazan takes to start the repetition SE cannot be the same (second) 3 steps he takes as a conclusion of his own SE. וכן נוהגים.

FlyingAxe 10-09-2011 05:54 PM

[QUOTE]What do you mean by "according to Chasiddus,"?
[/QUOTE]I meant: does Chassidus ascribe any specific significance to the three steps before one starts davening and the three steps after one finishes?

Paper 10-26-2011 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Torah613;170591]I see no reason why the 3 steps the Chazan takes to start the repetition SE cannot be the same (second) 3 steps he takes as a conclusion of his own SE.[/QUOTE]

I have not yet even seen a clear Makor for the Chazan having to take any steps forward before starting his repetition (aside from the technical aspect). Maybe you could provide that.

Torah613 10-26-2011 09:19 PM

M'svoro - why would the minhog by the Chazan be different then any other SE? The reason (in 95:2) would be the same.
[For fun - see Rambam Tfillo 9:3 and Kesef Mishna. AR 105:1].

Paper 10-26-2011 11:44 PM

[QUOTE=Torah613;170682]M'svoro - why would the minhog by the Chazan be different then any other SE? The reason (in 95:2) would be the same.
[For fun - see Rambam Tfillo 9:3 and Kesef Mishna. AR 105:1].[/QUOTE]

These Mekoiros are precisely some of the sources of my lack of clarity on the matter (there are also some Poiskim who argue on whether or not to do other things in Chazoras Hashatz just like in Shmoneh Esrei).

Regarding the Kesef Mishna, maybe this is why he doesn't bring the din of 3 steps before [B]any[/B] Shmoneh Esrei in his Shulchan Aruch, as he holds like the Rambam the way he understands him (the Rama brings it).
If so, we must say that Chazoras Hashatz is indeed like regular SE in this regard Lishitasoi.
Or maybe he doesn't hold of the din for a different reason (the same reason why the Rambam doesn't bring it anywhere) and perhaps even Chazoras Hashatz and regular SE would have been dissimilar regarding this case according to him.

We find a possible indication of not necessarily applying the din to both equally in the Alter Rebbe's SA 105:1, where the Alter Rebbe seems to say that sometimes you don't have to go forward 3 steps before SE.
But why may one do SE #2 where he stepped back into from his first SE when it clearly states otherwise in 95:2?

Possibly he is talking about someone who doesn't want to listen to the encouragement but not flat out Halacha in 95:2 (and with 123:4).

Perhaps the term "דבר [U]שצריך[/U] לעשות" has to do with it (I'm not sure what it refers to and possibly intends to exclude).

Where Tashlumin (it's still an obligation and mitzvah (108:1, 11) though, just not bizmana, so I don't know how it would be more similar to any other Tfila where you don't have to do 3 steps before,) and Musaf (108:10?) and (maybe even also) Chazoras Hashatz ([U]he[/U] doesn't have to do it,) are somehow different in nature and therefore in reasoning.

I'm not clear with the meaning of 95:2 in general.

Torah613 10-27-2011 08:50 AM

[QUOTE=Paper;170687]These Mekoiros are precisely some of the sources of my lack of clarity on the matter (there are also some Poiskim who argue on whether or not to do other things in Chazoras Hashatz just like in Shmoneh Esrei).[/quote]I brought them for "fun", as I don't think they are really relevant. I think svoro (like I wrote) is the key here.
As to arguments in the poskim etc. - we would have to examine them one by one and see why that is.
[quote]
Regarding the Kesef Mishna, maybe this is why he doesn't bring the din of 3 steps before [B]any[/B] Shmoneh Esrei in his Shulchan Aruch, as he holds like the Rambam the way he understands him (the Rama brings it).
If so, we must say that Chazoras Hashatz is indeed like regular SE in this regard Lishitasoi.
Or maybe he doesn't hold of the din for a different reason (the same reason why the Rambam doesn't bring it anywhere) and perhaps even Chazoras Hashatz and regular SE would have been dissimilar regarding this case according to him.[/quote]That was precisely my point: The minhog/din of 3 steps is a רוקח, which is good to do (טוב לחוש לדבריו, like the AR writes). Nothing to do with the Rambam or the KM who never bring it, therefore according to them there would not be any reason to do them before חזרת הש"ץ, though nonetheless the KM writes that concerning חזרת הש"ץ the minhog is to go forward where he stood the first SE (not like משמעות הרמב"ם). There is no reason to assume (according to them) that a regular SE needs 3 steps beforehand. However, we - who hold of this minhog, would lichora do it, as a מילתא בטעמא.[quote]

We find a possible indication of not necessarily applying the din to both equally in the Alter Rebbe's SA 105:1, where the Alter Rebbe seems to say that sometimes you don't have to go forward 3 steps before SE.
But why may one do SE #2 where he stepped back into from his first SE when it clearly states otherwise in 95:2?

Possibly he is talking about someone who doesn't want to listen to the encouragement but not flat out Halacha in 95:2 (and with 123:4).[/quote]Yes, that is what I think it means, and why I brought it. There may be any number of reasons why (this time) he doesn't what to do the 3 steps, since it is not clear-cut halacha anyway (maybe his legs hurt...).
[quote]
Perhaps the term "דבר [U]שצריך[/U] לעשות" has to do with it (I'm not sure what it refers to and possibly intends to exclude).

Where Tashlumin (it's still an obligation and mitzvah (108:1, 11) though, just not bizmana, so I don't know how it would be more similar to any other Tfila where you don't have to do 3 steps before,) and Musaf (108:10?) and (maybe even also) Chazoras Hashatz ([U]he[/U] doesn't have to do it,) are somehow different in nature and therefore in reasoning.

I'm not clear with the meaning of 95:2 in general.[/QUOTE]
For fun - see the source in רוקח inside - brought in דרכי משה...
Thank you for being מעורר the inyan.


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