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-   -   Is this theory ever been seen as legit? (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=8742)

elony 06-21-2007 08:07 PM

Is this theory ever been seen as legit?
 
When refering to the Moshiach and his "army", I read something interesting which I never thought of before. I in no way believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach, but could the army and Moshiach instead of fighting "the nations", fight the spiritual war that the nations have created by luring millions of Jews to secularism and intermarriage, i.e. fighting to make Jews frum again.

Torah613 06-21-2007 09:43 PM

Bepashtus the Rambam is referring to physical wars.

emes m'eretz 06-22-2007 04:50 AM

I think that it could refer to spiritual wars. And a spiritual war could affect a physical war, since physical is influenced by spiritual.

Gevurah 06-22-2007 07:46 AM

Bepashtus the Rambam means what with the lion and the lamb...:tongue:

Torah613 06-22-2007 07:59 AM

[QUOTE=emes m'eretz;133219]I think that it could refer to spiritual wars. And a spiritual war could affect a physical war, since physical is influenced by spiritual.[/QUOTE]You think? Nu nu... Not the simple context and meaning of the Rambam, though (but when does that stop anyone?).
In any case, discussed in the past.

emes m'eretz 06-22-2007 10:05 AM

The Rebbe referred to the Americans and Russians fighting about the Olympics (after Russia invaded Afghanistan) as possibly Gog Umogog.

Would you say that that is not the simple context of the Rambam? Probably.

So there seems to be room for interpetation.

Torah613 06-22-2007 10:42 AM

To be honest, I don't recall what you are referring to, but is fighting over the Olympics (?) a spiritual war?
Why don't you [b]learn[/b] the Rambam and see for yourself?
Anyway, the theory is not a new one (though wrong, IMO).

Gevurah 06-22-2007 12:39 PM

literary degrees...:hat:

tzfas 06-22-2007 12:41 PM

[QUOTE=emes m'eretz;133219]I think that it could refer to spiritual wars. And a spiritual war could affect a physical war, since physical is influenced by spiritual.[/QUOTE]

This issue has been discussed many times on this forum. search 'milchemes hashem' and you will come up with a thorough treatment of the subject.

emes m'eretz 06-22-2007 12:53 PM

[quote=Torah613;133229]To be honest, I don't recall what you are referring to, but is fighting over the Olympics (?) a spiritual war?
Why don't you [B]learn[/B] the Rambam and see for yourself?
Anyway, the theory is not a new one (though wrong, IMO).[/quote]

I tried looking for it but otzar 770 doesn't have that year (1979, 1980) and I don't know how to use the chabad library site. If you know how to use it, and you type in the word "gog", you should find it quickly.

If I remember correctly, the Rebbe stresses that gog umogog does not have to mean a physical war, and the nations' warring of words about the olympics can fulfill the obligation. So the point I am making is, that just like by gog, the Rebbe interpreted it not in the simple context, as a battle with physical swords and guns, the same might possibly be said for "yilchoim milchemes Hashem."

emes m'eretz 06-22-2007 12:54 PM

[quote=Tzfas;133238]This issue has been discussed many times on this forum. search 'milchemes hashem' and you will come up with a thorough treatment of the subject.[/quote]

Thanks. I hope to look there.

emes m'eretz 06-22-2007 12:56 PM

[quote=Gevurah;133237]literary degrees...:hat:[/quote]

First of all, I want to thank you for some of the best laughs I've had in a long time, from some of your previous posts.

Second, I have no idea what you are referring to in this quote. But don't worry, I haven't given up. I hope to some day figure it out.

A good Shabbos to all of you.

gezetzt 06-25-2007 10:56 AM

[QUOTE=elony;133209] I in no way believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach, QUOTE]

the Rebbe gave permision to anounce - BEOFEN HAMISKASBEL - that he is Moshiach.

chossidnistar 06-25-2007 11:04 AM

[quote=gezetzt;133286][quote=elony;133209] I in no way believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach, QUOTE]

the Rebbe gave permision to anounce - BEOFEN HAMISKASBEL - that he is Moshiach.[/quote]

if is not miskabel, no pernission

Bittul 06-25-2007 11:18 AM

[QUOTE=gezetzt;133286]the Rebbe gave permision to anounce - BEOFEN HAMISKASBEL - that he is Moshiach.[/QUOTE]
No, he did not.

Torah613 06-25-2007 08:25 PM

[QUOTE=gezetzt;133286][QUOTE=elony;133209] I in no way believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach, QUOTE]

the Rebbe gave permision to anounce - BEOFEN HAMISKASBEL - that he is Moshiach.[/QUOTE]Chapter and verse, please (ofen hamiskabel was about something else).

noahidelaws 06-26-2007 10:13 AM

The Igros Moshe writes clearly that it's not necessarily talking about physical wars, and it could include spiritual wars, in Igros Moshe Orech Chaim Chelek 4 simon 81.

Torah613 06-26-2007 12:01 PM

Actually, AFAICT, he doesn't explain "milchomos Hashem" in the events leading up to Moshiach (as per 11:4) as "spiritual wars" (though I admit, I am a bit rushed now, and may have missed the key phrase you are referring to). Even if he does, is that the simple reading in Rambam? Is the way the Rebbe understood it (which is what concerns us)?

Torah613 06-26-2007 10:26 PM

After looking at the tshuva again, he says no such thing. His discussion is about the need of weapons when Moshiach comes, or whether the fear ("pachad") of Jews will be enough. That has nothing to do with the "spiriitual wars" wars mentioned by the first poster. Uposhut.

JewishHiphop 06-27-2007 11:00 AM

[quote=noahidelaws;133305]The Igros Moshe writes clearly that it's not necessarily talking about physical wars, and it could include spiritual wars, in Igros Moshe Orech Chaim Chelek 4 simon 81.[/quote]
Good to know!

Torah613 06-27-2007 11:15 AM

[QUOTE=JewishHiphop;133330]Good to know![/QUOTE]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
[You just answered a question I had...].

Yankel Nosson 07-09-2007 11:26 AM

[QUOTE=elony;133209]When refering to the Moshiach and his "army", I read something interesting which I never thought of before. I in no way believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be Moshiach, but could the army and Moshiach instead of fighting "the nations", fight the spiritual war that the nations have created by luring millions of Jews to secularism and intermarriage, i.e. fighting to make Jews frum again.[/QUOTE]
See the [URL="http://otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=f:\web\otzar770\ocr_files\main\tora\52\1\B0297.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=40"]sicha of Chayeh Sora 5752[/URL], the Rebbe says that [COLOR="DarkRed"]"we see b'poal how the [inyan of] 'he will fight the wars of Hashem' is being brought about and it is being victorious in various matters -- davka amidst a war of peace (milchama shel shalom)."[/COLOR]

This was the Shabbos of the shluchim convention, who are indeed on the front lines of the war agaist "secularism and intermarriage" as you say.

In other words, IMHO there is a basis here for your "theory" :smile:

JewishHiphop 07-09-2007 12:02 PM

B"H


It would seem that the Rebbe shlita, Rav Moshe Feinstein z'l and Rebbe Nachman of Breslov z'l may all agree on this issue then. I have also seen a source in a lechaim attributed to Reb Elimelech of Luzinsk z'l that also implied the same idea.

Nu, yehi ratzon that all these tzadikim yesodei olam should be proven right, be'H.

Torah613 07-09-2007 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=Yankel Nosson;133533]See the [URL="http://otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=f:\web\otzar770\ocr_files\main\tora\52\1\B0297.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=40"]sicha of Chayeh Sora 5752[/URL], the Rebbe says that [COLOR="DarkRed"]"we see b'poal how the [inyan of] 'he will fight the wars of Hashem' is being brought about and it is being victorious in various matters -- davka amidst a war of peace (milchama shel shalom)."[/COLOR]

This was the Shabbos of the shluchim convention, who are indeed on the front lines of the war agaist "secularism and intermarriage" as you say.

In other words, IMHO there is a basis here for your "theory" :smile:[/QUOTE]Nope. No basis at all, if you would read a few paragraphs, and understand what the "theory" here is all about. The Rebbe is refering to physical victories in a way of "milchomo shel sholom" - which is not the "theory" here.
Hoppy - if you would look in that tshuva inside (which I safely assume you did not), you would also see that it has nothing to do with the "theory" put forward here, as I mentioned above. But it always is simpler not to...
As for what RN Breslov and a "source" in Lechaim (!!!) - without primary sources it is silly to even begin to discuss...
The point here is not the "drush" or "remez" etc., but the simple meaning of the halocho in the context of the Rambam.

Gevurah 07-09-2007 01:41 PM

[QUOTE]Hoppy [/QUOTE]

:hat: literary degrees


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