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TakehBored 05-20-2016 01:52 AM

Kadish derabonon
Is there a source for those who are 'makpid' not to say kadish drabanan in davening when being a chazan if Boruch Hashem both of their parents are alive?

AhavasYisrael 05-20-2016 09:07 AM

Maybe because the Kaddish d'Rabbanan is often said by an orphan, they are concerned about Ayin Harah.

I believe that outside Lubavitch, one whose parents are living does not generally say Kaddish d'Rabbanan.

hishtatchus 05-21-2016 10:02 PM

Technically one may need permission from their parents to say Kaddish while they are alive.

Eitan770 05-21-2016 11:46 PM

[QUOTE]Technically one may need permission from their parents to say Kaddish while they are alive.[/QUOTE]
I've never heard this applied to Kaddish D'Rabbanan. It's b'chlal not connected to mourning.

[QUOTE]I believe that outside Lubavitch, one whose parents are living does not generally say Kaddish d'Rabbanan.[/QUOTE]
I would find this suprising. In Yeshivos, where there is often no Chiyuv, whichever Bochur is Chazan will say it after Sheyiboneh and before Aleinu. What would they do in that situation? Or by a Siyum Masechta?

AhavasYisrael 05-22-2016 12:06 AM

I believe they just wouldn't say kaddish at those points.

My father grew up in a non-Lubavitch family, and we lived in a non-Lubavitch community. After my bar mitzvah, we started davening in a Chabad House that had opened in our community. I davened for the amud, and before Aleinu, I saw the Kaddish d'Rabbanan in the siddur, so I started saying it. I wasn't expecting the Aramaic, so I stumbled through it. Afterwards, my father told me that only yesomim say it, but when he was going to stop me, the shliach had told him that once I had started it was ok, because some people do say it regardless. My father joked that breaking my teeth over the words probably taught me a lesson.

AhavasYisrael 05-22-2016 12:26 AM

Also, keep in mind that the nussach is different, so there may not be a Kaddish d'Rabbanan in the same places.

By a Siyum, there's a totally different kaddish. Nobody has a problem saying that Kaddish if they're making the siyum.

Shmully 05-22-2016 05:20 PM

The Rebbe writes that Kaddish Derabonon can be said by anyone

rebyoel 05-22-2016 05:27 PM

TakehBored, long time no speak!

See the question in ריב"ש 115, seems like the ancient minhag was that this kadish was for people without parents.

In Mateh Efraim Siman 432 it says: כשמסיים לדרוש אומרים קדיש דרבנן ואפילו אם אין שם אבל יאמר מי שאין לו אב ואם.

In the footnotes it says:

וכן כתב גם בסידור הגריעב"ץ בדיני עשרת ימי תשובה

אך הנה בתשובות רמ"א סי' קי"ח משמע דהכל תלוי בהקפדת האבות ובקדיש דרבנן ודאי שאין מקפידין כיון שאינו אומר קדיש יתום והא גם בד"מ סי' קל"ג מביא דקדיש לאחר עלינו י"ל אפי' מי שיש לו או"א ושוב כתב מהר"ם ושתשב"ץ דאם מקפידים אין לומר וכש"כ דרבנן דמצינו בגמ' סוטה דף מ"ט דעלמ' קאי אקדושא דסדר' ואמן יהש"ר דאגדתא, וע' בב"י או"ח סי' נ"ה בשם הראב"ד וכן מלאתי בפ"ת יו"ד סי' שע"ו סק"ד ובס' כרם שלמה שם שמביאי' בהדי' בשס תשו' אבן שוהם* סי כ' שהעלה לדינא דקדיש דרבנן יכול לומר אף מי שיש לו או"א כמו פריסת שמע המובא באו"ח סי' ס"ט יע"ש וכ"נ מדברי השבו"י ח"ב סי' וע' בשי"ת משיב דברים חיו"ד סי' רי"ב ובשו"ת יי"צ ח"ג סי' ש"מ ודו"ק.

* The name should be אבן השהם.
Also in Darkei Chaim Vesholom (Munkatch), Seder V'nusach Hatefila 118 it says:
ואמומרים קדיש דרבנן וכשלא הי' יתום בביהמ"ד אעפ"כ ציוה לומר קדיש זה (אחרי איזהו וברייתא דר"י) לאיזה איש גם שאינו תוך יב"ח וכשאירע פ"א שלא הי' בביהמ"ד רק מי שיש להם אב ואם אז הי' הוא בעצמו אומר קדיש דרבנן הלז.
I assume at the time of this story he was a Rebbe which means that he himself did not have a father.

In Pischei Teshuva 376:4 he quotes the אבן השהם that it's OK.

rebyoel 05-22-2016 05:28 PM

I see R' Guararie already did all the research, check Chikrei Minhagim vol. 1 p. 30.

AhavasYisrael 05-23-2016 11:10 AM

It would be helpful if the source notes were translated to English.


rebyoel 05-23-2016 04:53 PM

Even if I translate it, it's only a limited selection of sources against it (to answer the original question.)

The bottom line is that according to the consensus it's perfectly fine to say it, unless one of the parents explicitly objects (it's generally not necessary to double check).

AhavasYisrael 05-23-2016 04:59 PM


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